Dry rock cycle tempature?

[Acro maniac]

This is not something I have dealt with in the past, so I figured Id ask. This might not even be the right place to ask so forgive me.
I have fresh bleached and chlorinated, sun dried rock. It is now being cycled in a brute can with nsw. I added some Dr Tims to start the bacteria and phantom feed some mysis shrimp to decay.
My question is what is too hot for the bacteria to populate or is there even a too hot? The bin is in the garage and I have a mag9 running for circulation.
2 factors (1) mag 9 generates a good amount of heat.
(2) being in the garage in south Florida is its own heat supply.
I have a digital thermometer I can test tommorrow mid day to see what im getting as a peek temp.
I would think its going to be around 90 degrees but I will confirm tomorrow.
Any info would help thanks

 

[P-Dub]

This is not something I have dealt with in the past, so I figured Id ask. This might not even be the right place to ask so forgive me.
I have fresh bleached and chlorinated, sun dried rock. It is now being cycled in a brute can with nsw. I added some Dr Tims to start the bacteria and phantom feed some mysis shrimp to decay.
My question is what is too hot for the bacteria to populate or is there even a too hot? The bin is in the garage and I have a mag9 running for circulation.
2 factors (1) mag 9 generates a good amount of heat.
(2) being in the garage in south Florida is its own heat supply.
I have a digital thermometer I can test tommorrow mid day to see what im getting as a peek temp.
I would think its going to be around 90 degrees but I will confirm tomorrow.
Any info would help thanks

Good question but I think it might depend on the strains of bacteria. I cycled mine in black bins outside for 4 months in the tropics with average daily temps tipping 90+... Mine did just fine.

 

[PatW]

Bacteria are pretty tough. As long as the temperatures are below 100 degrees, you will probably be ok.

 

[Acro maniac]

Thanks for the response

 

[MnFish1]

This is not something I have dealt with in the past, so I figured Id ask. This might not even be the right place to ask so forgive me.
I have fresh bleached and chlorinated, sun dried rock. It is now being cycled in a brute can with nsw. I added some Dr Tims to start the bacteria and phantom feed some mysis shrimp to decay.
My question is what is too hot for the bacteria to populate or is there even a too hot? The bin is in the garage and I have a mag9 running for circulation.
2 factors (1) mag 9 generates a good amount of heat.
(2) being in the garage in south Florida is its own heat supply.
I have a digital thermometer I can test tommorrow mid day to see what im getting as a peek temp.
I would think its going to be around 90 degrees but I will confirm tomorrow.
Any info would help thanks

Seems like the only really issue is oxygenation - Oxygen levels will drop as the temperature is higher - so make sure that you have enough flow. Curious - why not do it in the tank? And nitrifying bacteria require fairly high oxygen levels.

 

[Acro maniac]

Seems like the only really issue is oxygenation - Oxygen levels will drop as the temperature is higher - so make sure that you have enough flow. Curious - why not do it in the tank? And nitrifying bacteria require fairly high oxygen levels.

I prefer to cycle it outside the system its going to end up in ,because its easier to eliminate the high nutrient when starting up. If i start it where it going to end up Ill have 10x the water volume to get back to a reasonable nutrient level.
I would rather take my time in the start up rather than rush it. It makes life easier later on down the road

 

[MnFish1]

I prefer to cycle it outside the system its going to end up in ,because its easier to eliminate the high nutrient when starting up. If i start it where it going to end up Ill have 10x the water volume to get back to a reasonable nutrient level.
I would rather take my time in the start up rather than rush it. It makes life easier later on down the road

Curious - how do you figure? Once your rock is 'cycled' - you have a given amount of bacteria - when you put it in your tank - the bacteria need to be fed the same amount eventually - or they will die. BTW - I use fish to cycle my tank - I'm just curious about your rationale. Thanks

 

[Acro maniac]

Not sure what your asking that hasnt been explained previously.
The rock will leach po4 when you start to cycle/cure. Why add all that po4 to a new system? This all seems to happen as the bacteria start colonizing the rock (bacteria flocking). This will cause detritus/ sediments to be expeled from the rock. Over time the rock will stablize (po4)and basically cleaned by the bacteria. I like to manage this in a smaller system so Im not doing massive water changes to recover to acceptable levels of nutrients.
This will be an sps dominate system if that adds anything.
If it was a fowler or softie system I wouldn't go to these measures.
Hope that clears thing up for you

 

[MnFish1]

Not sure what your asking that hasnt been explained previously.
The rock will leach po4 when you start to cycle/cure. Why add all that po4 to a new system? This all seems to happen as the bacteria start colonizing the rock (bacteria flocking). This will cause detritus/ sediments to be expeled from the rock. Over time the rock will stablize (po4)and basically cleaned by the bacteria. I like to manage this in a smaller system so Im not doing massive water changes to recover to acceptable levels of nutrients.
This will be an sps dominate system if that adds anything.
If it was a fowler or softie system I wouldn't go to these measures.
Hope that clears thing up for you

So. Curious. Where is that phosphorous coming from. What would cause it to leach in a bucket as compared to the tank? What keeps the phosphate from reattaching to the rock in the bucket vs the tank. Either way your still doing water changes so I don’t see the sifference

 

[Acro maniac]

So. Curious. Where is that phosphorous coming from. What would cause it to leach in a bucket as compared to the tank? What keeps the phosphate from reattaching to the rock in the bucket vs the tank. Either way your still doing water changes so I don’t see the sifference

It will leach out in whatever its in so why would I want it in my dt.
The deference is 100s of gallons of water.
Not sure why your asking questions that have answers in previous posts.
If your intrested in scientific explanation a simple search for reef tank bacteria flocking, po4, etc..
The whole idea of eliminating all the organics from dead rock before using it is to reduce the nutrients.

 

[MnFish1]

It will leach out in whatever its in so why would I want it in my dt.
The deference is 100s of gallons of water.
Not sure why your asking questions that have answers in previous posts.
If your intrested in scientific explanation a simple search for reef tank bacteria flocking, po4, etc..
The whole idea of eliminating all the organics from dead rock before using it is to reduce the nutrients.

I’m not trying to argue with you. By definition dead rock doesn’t have organics (especially after bleaching). It MAY have phosphates - but may not. You should be able to test the PO4 after a couple days to see - at least in the thread below @Randy Holmes-Farley says that after a couple days in NSW - if the PO4 level is <.03 - you needn't worry. . BUT - for the sake of discussion - since you asked a question - and I'm trying to help you by answering - cut me some slack. The point is:

Take 30 pounds of dead rock- soak it in 5 gallons of saltwater in a bucket. Assuming (and I dont believe it would necessarily leech PO4 to a significant degree after being bleached) PO4 is being 'leeched' out of the rock - the concentration in the 5 gallon bucket will be 20 x higher than putting the same amount of rock in a 100 gallon tank. In which system do you think it would be more for PO4 to re-adsorb onto the rock? What this means - is that a certain point the Po4 will stop being released because the concentration is so high in the water. So - you're going to need to be doing many more water changes in the 5 gallon bucket. The total amount of PO4 'leeched' in both cases should be the same. And - compared to whatever livestock, feeding, etc that you do - to me it should be a trivial amount that will be released from the rock. Of course - these are hypothetical volumes - but the example is still the same.

In any case - back to your OP which I was trying to answer - I think there is a fairly high probability that whatever cycling you're trying to do (bacteria-wise) will be limited with the temperature/oxygenation of rock in a small volume of water. Thus - if you did it in your house, etc - you are more likely to have a more steady temperature with out losing much - that was the point of my post recommending you do it in your tank. (or in the house - in the brute can).

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/rocks-leaching-phosphate.225676/

 

[Acro maniac]

This was pretty is to find. I guess BRS did a test that actually shows po4 after bleaching rock.

 

[MnFish1]

This was pretty is to find. I guess BRS did a test that actually shows po4 after bleaching rock.

I rewrote this post - The key here - you already used bleach. You already dried the rock. You used dead rock. The Organics are removed by bleach - the phosphates are removed by Muriatic acid.

They dont mention whether they did any kind of water change - but if they changed the water 2 x - what would the phosphates have been. It seems to me that bleach alone - or bleach + acid - would have been done after a week - you're doing it for several weeks. If it were me - I would treat with bleach - and then muriatic acid - carefully as in the video. Rinse carefully use Chlorine neutralizer. Set the rock in a bucket or tank - and if the PO4 after a water change is low - I would put it in my tank and start cycling.

Again your OP wasn't about Phosphate - it was about 'cycling' - ie nitrifying bacteria. Again - IMHO you're trading one problem for another one ie temperature. Just my opinion - which is what you asked for....

But 'the rock' is not the only thing leaching phosphate. Its the organics on the rock that are causing the problem (#1) - #2 - Phosphate adsorbed onto the rock will stay on the rock if the solution in your bucket is high in PO4. You need frequent water changes (per the other thread) such that the PO4 level is LOW or VERY LOW to remove further PO4.

 

[cmcoker]

If it's in a bucket, you dont HAVE to change the water. Just dose lanthanum chloride. No sensitive species to be affected, no buildup of precipitate in your display, it can be dosed repeatedly without worrying about water changes. And the pool stuff is relatively cheap

This is what I have done previously, instead of an acid bath.

 

[MnFish1]

If it's in a bucket, you dont HAVE to change the water. Just dose lanthanum chloride. No sensitive species to be affected, no buildup of precipitate in your display, it can be dosed repeatedly without worrying about water changes. And the pool stuff is relatively cheap

This is what I have done previously, instead of an acid bath.

Correct - you dont have to do it then - but you do have to dose or somehow reduce the PO4 to very low levels. I personally would never do this - I have a bit of experience with Lanthanum. There is not a good deal of evidence to say that Lanthanum does not build up on rocks - and is then released into the display later. . I would do water changes every time - but its just personal opinion. Its another option

 

[cmcoker]

Would you think if the lanthanum was being released from previously treated rocks, it would show on a ICP analysis?

 

[MnFish1]

Would you think if the lanthanum was being released from previously treated rocks, it would show on a ICP analysis?

Yes - assuming that were the case - lanthanum should be in the ICP - if you trust the ICP. The question though - is - do the rocks need to be treated in the first place. What I had said - was that if you put fresh workck in water (salt) - and the PO4 level is negligible after a couple days - that none of this process needs to be performed (According to @Randy Holmes-Farley ) per his posts in the thread mentioned. Frankly - though I'm sure lots of people use lanthanum - I would probably not - but instead use GFO - or water changes. Just to not introduce another potential problem. in Fact - I wouldn't have dont the things that the OP has done - despite BRS comments. never have. Perhaps I'm wrong - but I'd rather suffer through a couple months of a tank with a bit of Phosphate - and perhaps algae - as compared to 4 months of a bucket of rocks in my garage. Thats just a personal preference.

 

[AltitudeAquarium]

I rewrote this post - The key here - you already used bleach. You already dried the rock. You used dead rock. The Organics are removed by bleach - the phosphates are removed by Muriatic acid.

They dont mention whether they did any kind of water change - but if they changed the water 2 x - what would the phosphates have been. It seems to me that bleach alone - or bleach + acid - would have been done after a week - you're doing it for several weeks. If it were me - I would treat with bleach - and then muriatic acid - carefully as in the video. Rinse carefully use Chlorine neutralizer. Set the rock in a bucket or tank - and if the PO4 after a water change is low - I would put it in my tank and start cycling.

Again your OP wasn't about Phosphate - it was about 'cycling' - ie nitrifying bacteria. Again - IMHO you're trading one problem for another one ie temperature. Just my opinion - which is what you asked for....

But 'the rock' is not the only thing leaching phosphate. Its the organics on the rock that are causing the problem (#1) - #2 - Phosphate adsorbed onto the rock will stay on the rock if the solution in your bucket is high in PO4. You need frequent water changes (per the other thread) such that the PO4 level is LOW or VERY LOW to remove further PO4.

I bought used dry rock from another reefer. I was not sure (chemically, microscopically or otherwise contaminated) of the conditions of the rock. As a newbie, I researched and reviewed BRS and Melvsreef videos on curing rock. I soaked in bleach for 2 weeks in a brute container, I soaked in clear water for a week, then I sun-dried the rock for a couple of weeks. I did use a power head and a heater while going through the processes. I did not inoculate with bacteria until I placed the rock in the tank for cycling. I believe following the advice in the videos and on the R2R helped me not experience the uglies that bad. My testing showed minimal phosphates. I mostly worried about silicates because I was not sure how much was removed during the process. My 2 cents.

 

[AltitudeAquarium]

I bought used dry rock from another reefer. I was not sure (chemically, microscopically or otherwise contaminated) of the conditions of the rock. As a newbie, I researched and reviewed BRS and Melvsreef videos on curing rock. I soaked in bleach for 2 weeks in a brute container, I soaked in clear water for a week, then I sun-dried the rock for a couple of weeks. I did use a power head and a heater while going through the processes. I did not inoculate with bacteria until I placed the rock in the tank for cycling. I believe following the advice in the videos and on the R2R helped me not experience the uglies that bad. My testing showed minimal phosphates. I mostly worried about silicates because I was not sure how much was removed during the process. My 2 cents.

Edit: it is my opinion that the temperature should be no higher than the temperature of the aquarium.

 

[Acro maniac]

I’m not trying to argue with you. By definition dead rock doesn’t have organics (especially after bleaching). It MAY have phosphates - but may not. You should be able to test the PO4 after a couple days to see - at least in the thread below @Randy Holmes-Farley says that after a couple days in NSW - if the PO4 level is <.03 - you needn't worry. . BUT - for the sake of discussion - since you asked a question - and I'm trying to help you by answering - cut me some slack. The point is:

Take 30 pounds of dead rock- soak it in 5 gallons of saltwater in a bucket. Assuming (and I dont believe it would necessarily leech PO4 to a significant degree after being bleached) PO4 is being 'leeched' out of the rock - the concentration in the 5 gallon bucket will be 20 x higher than putting the same amount of rock in a 100 gallon tank. In which system do you think it would be more for PO4 to re-adsorb onto the rock? What this means - is that a certain point the Po4 will stop being released because the concentration is so high in the water. So - you're going to need to be doing many more water changes in the 5 gallon bucket. The total amount of PO4 'leeched' in both cases should be the same. And - compared to whatever livestock, feeding, etc that you do - to me it should be a trivial amount that will be released from the rock. Of course - these are hypothetical volumes - but the example is still the same.

In any case - back to your OP which I was trying to answer - I think there is a fairly high probability that whatever cycling you're trying to do (bacteria-wise) will be limited with the temperature/oxygenation of rock in a small volume of water. Thus - if you did it in your house, etc - you are more likely to have a more steady temperature with out losing much - that was the point of my post recommending you do it in your tank. (or in the house - in the brute can).

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/rocks-leaching-phosphate.225676/

I didnt say anything about arguing, I was just trying to provide you with what information you were asking for.
The rabbit hole about po4 was initiated by you in the first few post. I was only attempting to share my rational.
I believe Im set moving forward. I spoke to a marine biologist at the aquaculture facility ( Harbor Branch/ORA) and he assured me the warmer the better but he would not exceed 100 degrees.
Im good at 88-92, that was my temp swing yesterday.