Elements with No Known Biological Role

[Reefahholic]

Let me know your thoughts.

This is an honest question that needs to be asked. There’s been many times I’ve heard, I wouldn’t dose X element, because “it has no known biological role” or “no known positive biological role.” Lets exclude elements like Bismuth or Aluminum, and focus on elements that are actually dosed by many folks like Barium, Moly, Rubidium, etc.

Here’s the question:

What do you say to companies like Red Sea or other organizations that have done extensive research, that identified 31 trace and minor elements that help make up the skeleton and soft tissue of corals? Should we declare these elements trivial.? Are they not needed for proper growth or coloration of corals, because we can’t provide peer reviewed data. I can’t easily accept this notion when I see my system sucking down many of these elements. Something is obviously using them and using a lot of them. It’s nothing personal, but I’ll need more convincing than somebody
saying there’s “no known biological role.”

Let’s consider that bacteria/microorganisms alone consume many of these elements. That’s enough to call them beneficial in my book. If Bacteria/microorganisms utilize these elements, and the population multiplies, this is an excellent food source for corals, but also provides stability to the system. Please correct me if I’m wrong. It’s similar to when I dose organic carbon, I literally see the corals put out more PE and colors. Why? Because they’re consuming the bacteria population that’s loaded with many elements including nitrogen and phosphorus, and it’s quite obvious they like it.


Thoughts?

 

[blaxsun]

Honestly, I'd say the question is way above my reef equivalent pay grade! I do supplement my tank with a myriad of trace elements, though - so I'm definitely in the supplement your tank camp.

 

[Townes_Van_Camp]

Nah

 

[Reefer Matt]

I'm not so sure the companies did much, if any research, and the products are a perceived cure to a perceived problem. Someone who does water changes shouldn't have to dose trace elements. But those who don't, will have to,imo.
But on the other hand, I know a few Reefers who do water changes, and swear by trace element dosing, even down to the ppb!

 

[Reefahholic]

But on the other hand, I know a few Reefers who swear by trace element dosing, even down to the ppb!

Absolutely, add me to the list. I’ve seen changes in ug/L / ppb as small as 0.3 ug/L and there’s a marked difference w/o a doubt. I told the story before, but before I was targeting the ultra traces I saw a lot of corals start to pale out, because the tank was taking off and consuming more than normal. The elements become very low and some basically depleted. The one that caught my attention the most was a Strawberry Shortcake right at the front glass, and was the coral I noticed first. As soon as I started to increase (6 elements) Cobalt, Chrome, Iron, Copper, Manganese, and Selenium the corals started to come back more vividly than before. I will say I was also dialing up Zinc, Nickel, and Vanadium, but I believe the 6 I mentioned above played the bigger role. The higher I dialed up the better they got. Deep rich color. Of course not going past the target range. We’re taking about 0.3-0.7 ug/L on some of these elements. Marked color differences without a doubt. Gets me excited talking about it.

I do understand why there’s skepticism, but if you ask anybody that’s dosed Fluoride, Barium, Moly, etc…they’re certainly being consumed. We’re not taking about a few mL’s either. We’re talking bottles. I can only conclude that “something” loves it. When my corals keep coloring up, putting out more PE, and growing faster I’d assume that something is likely the corals using a lot of it. The same way I see the effects of organic carbon dosing. The corals like it, and that is clear. I do believe bacteria and a lot of the microbiome are using the elements as well (Microfauna, Microflora, etc).

It’s a really interesting topic. Personally I keep thinking about fat gut loaded bacteria full of trace elements, phosphorus, and nitrogen being filtered by the corals 24/7 as their number one food source. If that doesn’t get you excited…I’m not sure anything can. Although my Brian only thinks about acros growing as fast as possible, so this may not appeal to those who keep softies, but one of the best tanks I’ve seen full of huge…fat… LPS carbon doses his system which is very similar (I believe) to dosing trace elements, because the corals consume these bacteria that are gut loaded full of elements and nutrients. I do believe his corals grew to the size they did from the large bacteria population in the tank. There are some tanks where you think…what the heck is this guy doing to grow corals this size? It’s so abnormal looking that you have to scratch your head and go wait a minute, what is he doing that the rest of us aren’t? I’m not talking about an old established 10 yr system either. I’m talking about a 3-4 yr system that is wall to wall (no transplants or transfers) grown from small frags to insane biomass.

 

[Reefer Matt]

Absolutely, add me to the list. I’ve seen changes in ug/L / ppb as small as 0.3 ug/L and there’s a marked difference w/o a doubt. I told the story before, but before I was targeting the ultra traces I saw a lot of corals start to pale out, because the tank was taking off and consuming more than normal. The elements become very low and some basically depleted. The one that caught my attention the most was a Strawberry Shortcake right at the front glass, and was the coral I noticed first. As soon as I started to increase (6 elements) Cobalt, Chrome, Iron, Copper, Manganese, and Selenium the corals started to come back more vividly than before. I will say I was also dialing up Zinc, Nickel, and Vanadium, but I believe the 6 I mentioned above played the bigger role. The higher I got up on the target ranges the better they got. Deep rich color.

I do understand why there’s skepticism, but if you ask anybody that’s dosed Fluoride, Barium, Moly, etc…they’re certainly being consumed. We’re not taking about a few mL’s either. We’re talking bottles. I can only conclude that “something” loves it. When my corals keep coloring up, putting out more PE, and growing faster I’d assume that something is likely the corals using a lot of it. The same way I see the effects of organic carbon dosing. The corals like it, and that is clear. I do believe bacteria and a lot of the microbiome are using the elements as well (Microfauna, Microflora, etc).

It’s a really interesting topic. Personally I keep thinking about fat gut loaded bacteria full of trace elements, phosphorus, and nitrogen being filtered by the corals 24/7 as their number one food source. If that doesn’t get you excited…I’m not sure anything can. Although my Brian only thinks about acros growing as fast as possible, so this may not appeal to those who keep softies, but one of the best tanks I’ve seen full of huge…fat… LPS carbon doses his system which is very similar (I believe) to dosing trace elements, because the corals consume these bacteria that are gut loaded full of elements and nutrients. I do believe his corals grew to the size they did from the large bacteria population in the tank. There are some tanks where to think…what the heck is this guy doing to grow corals this size? It’s so abnormal looking that you have to scratch your head and go wait a minute, what is he doing that the rest of us aren’t? I’m not talking about an old established 10 yr system either. I’m talking about a 3-4 yr system that is wall to wall (no transplants or transfers) grown from small frags to insane biomass.

I am interested in dosing iodine myself. It depletes after about three days after a water change in one of my tanks (mostly softies). I think dosing trace elements, while maybe not necessary for most, can be the difference between "good" and "great", especially for lps and sps. Maybe some more research will convince others as well.

 

[Reefahholic]

Although this guy gets this color with ATI Essentials and very strong light. Very impressive if you ask me. He’s also dosing a few other elements like strontium, potassium, and iodine.

 

[Reefahholic]

I am interested in dosing iodine myself. It depletes after about three days after a water change in one of my tanks (mostly softies). I think dosing trace elements, while maybe not necessary for most, can be the difference between "good" and "great", especially for lps and sps. Maybe some more research will convince others as well.

Iodine absolutely is depleted or very low in many systems. Believe it or not even with people doing water changes, because the volume they’re changing isn’t enough. If I had a dollar every time I’ve seen iodine come back at 20 ug/L or lower…I’d be a rich man.

But…mine is sitting at 81.3 ug/L right now and it’s only because I’m not scared to send ICP-MS and check my elements. HeHe


Honestly man…send off a $44 ATI and check it. I can help you dose it up accurately if you like.

 

[Doctorgori]

I’m a slight skeptic. Red Seas “trace colors” program seems a lil broad to me. I’d like to start with does more color even equate to health/better growth?

 

[Reefer Matt]

Iodine absolutely is depleted or very low in my systems. Believe it or not even with people doing water changes, because the volume they’re changing isn’t enough. If I had a dollar every time I’ve seen iodine come back at 20 ug/L or lower…I’d be a rich man.

But…mine is sitting at 81.3 ug/L right now and it’s only because I’m not scared to send ICP-MS and check my elements. HeHe


Honestly man…send off a $44 ATI and check it. I can help you dose it up accurately if you like.

I honestly have never had an icp test done. I change about 150 gallons of water out of 390 gallons total water volume between five tanks monthly. Yet issues still arise from time to time. Maybe I will consider it when finances allow next. Thanks!

 

[7of9]

We’re always learning more about human nutrition, so why not corals? Just think about all we’ve learned in the past 10 years about our own gut micro biome and its importance and what foods help influence a healthy balance there or the recent research on forest microbiomes and how important fungus is to the health and even communication between tree roots.

There is so much about this world and it’s interconnectedness that we’re only beginning to scratch the surface of understanding.

It’s most likely that we just don’t yet understand what is consuming those trace elements and its importance to the entire system.

All that being said, one of the reasons I run a small tank (other than that I’m not rich) is so I can just do weekly water changes and hope for the best.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Let me know your thoughts.

This is an honest question that needs to be asked. There’s been many times I’ve heard, I wouldn’t dose X element, because “it has no known biological role” or “no known positive biological role.” Lets exclude elements like Bismuth or Aluminum, and focus on elements that are actually dosed by many folks like Barium, Moly, Rubidium, etc.

Here’s the question:

What do you say to companies like Red Sea or other organizations that have done extensive research, that identified 31 trace and minor elements that help make up the skeleton and soft tissue of corals? Should we declare these elements trivial.? Are they not needed for proper growth or coloration of corals, because we can’t provide peer reviewed data. I can’t easily accept this notion when I see my system sucking down many of these elements. Something is obviously using them and using a lot of them. It’s nothing personal, but I’ll need more convincing than somebody
saying there’s “no known biological role.”

Let’s consider that bacteria/microorganisms alone consume many of these elements. That’s enough to call them beneficial in my book. If Bacteria/microorganisms utilize these elements, and the population multiplies, this is an excellent food source for corals, but also provides stability to the system. Please correct me if I’m wrong. It’s similar to when I dose organic carbon, I literally see the corals put out more PE and colors. Why? Because they’re consuming the bacteria population that’s loaded with many elements including nitrogen and phosphorus, and it’s quite obvious they like it.


Thoughts?

Detecting elements in coral skeletons is zero evidence of biological role or utility. Many ions, perhaps nearly all, get accidentally incorporated into depositing calcium carbonate, whether it is done by a coral or simple abiotic (nonbiological) precipitation.

Even plutonium is incorporated into coral skeletons.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Iodine absolutely is depleted or very low in my systems. Believe it or not even with people doing water changes, because the volume they’re changing isn’t enough. If I had a dollar every time I’ve seen iodine come back at 20 ug/L or lower…I’d be a rich man.

But…mine is sitting at 81.3 ug/L right now and it’s only because I’m not scared to send ICP-MS and check my elements. HeHe


Honestly man…send off a $44 ATI and check it. I can help you dose it up accurately if you like.

Algae is a big user of iodine, as is obviously proven by the fact that seaweeds of many sorts are a big source of dietary iodine.

However, in my experiments, I could not get a statistical difference in either chaeto or caulerpa racemosa growth with and without detectable iodine in the water.

In many tanks, including my own, supplemental iodine did not seem to make any apparent visible difference.

 

[Reefer Matt]

Even plutonium is incorporated into coral skeletons.

Now you're giving away my secret! (I live next to a nuclear power plant)

 

[Reefahholic]

I’m a slight skeptic. Red Seas “trace colors” program seems a lil broad to me. I’d like to start with does more color even equate to health/better growth?

That’s a great question. I’m gonna say yes because when my corals colored up they grew faster. From what I see color = better health to a certain extent.

 

[Miami Reef]

@Reefahholic

Does Moonshiners dose lanthanum as part of their regime?

 

[Reefahholic]

I honestly have never had an icp test done. I change about 150 gallons of water out of 390 gallons total water volume between five tanks monthly. Yet issues still arise from time to time. Maybe I will consider it when finances allow next. Thanks!

For me it’s not only for the elements, but to also check source water and pollutants. I like to check nutrients also. I’d say definitely send one out.

 

[Doctorgori]

Even plutonium is incorporated into coral skeletons.

how else would you get those fluorescent greens
….shhhh , maybe repackage nuclear waste and dose it as “Vibrant” or sumthin

 

[Reefahholic]

@Reefahholic

Does Moonshiners dose lanthanum as part of their regime?

We don’t. I understand that corals do “minimally use” some elements, but Lanthanum is considered more of a pollutant. I’ve seen people dosing it can apparently no longer keep clams in the system. Not sure how true that is or at what level is the tipping point. I’d assume higher levels wouldn’t be good.

 

[Miami Reef]

I’ve dosed lanthanum, and my 6 maxima clams are doing great.