Elements with No Known Biological Role

[Miami Reef]

I agree. I’m a big fan of water changes. I mainly do it to restore salinity balance, maintain some trace elements, organic removal that isn’t removed by skimmer/GAC, nitrate/phosphate removal, and for a way to get in touch with the tank.

 

[Miami Reef]

Good news is almost every salt mix out there has elevated manganese when newly mixed.

I question if the elevated iodine or manganese isn’t part of the “water change sparkle” so many claim to see after a water change

I think the water change sparkle comes from reduced yellowing compounds. :)

 

[rtparty]

This is a very good analogy! You almost sound like Ryan at BRS. Haha.

Look the goal for all of us here is to try to spread good information. I don’t tell anybody anything that isn’t helping my tank, and I appreciate information like this because a lot of guys rely solely on water changes. I think they are great for reducing or removing pollutants, and also adding back some trace elements, but as @rtparty points out here, make sure you do some simple math and know what’s going back in for sure because you will have much more success this way.

I do talk to Ryan about a lot of this stuff when given the chance. :)

Problem with water changes for trace elements is, I’d bet a bag of potato chips, most salt companies aren’t aiming for exacts with trace elements. They likely have an idea what’s coming in from other raw materials and that’s “close enough”

 

[Reefahholic]

For every amazing reef that doses trace elements, you can find one that is just as good without.

I disagree. If you look at a system with tight chemistry, and a system with weak chemistry, there is a clear difference. More intense color and faster growth. It’s not only about color and growth though. It’s about minimizing problems and creating more stability.

We can’t compare a newbie reefer against a seasoned pro either. You have to have a level playing field.

If you put two seasoned pros together with equal ability, and let one slack on chemistry (many elements are low or depleted), and the other keep the entire chemistry in check, the winner will be quite clear. I’ve never seen a nice tank with poor chemistry. I’ve seen some large pale 10 yr old colonies though.

Nobody has ever argued that you can’t grow/color corals with “crap” chemistry, but they will grow much faster and produce better colors with stronger chemistry.

Is this really where we’ve arrived in 2023-2024? “My chemistry sucks, but my tank is amazing, and just as good as any other tank out there.” Is that the argument.? :-)

 

[Reefahholic]

I do talk to Ryan about a lot of this stuff when given the chance. :)

Problem with water changes for trace elements is, I’d bet a bag of potato chips, most salt companies aren’t aiming for exacts with trace elements. They likely have an idea what’s coming in from other raw materials and that’s “close enough”

Or they compromise on raw elements going in due to availability and cost.

 

[rtparty]

Or they compromise on raw elements going in due to availability and cost.

Some of them absolutely do compromise somewhere. You can’t be the cheapest because you use the best raw materials with the most strict QC along the way.

 

[Reefahholic]

Some of them absolutely do compromise somewhere. You can’t be the cheapest because you use the best raw materials with the most strict QC along the way.

Exactly, and when they compromise that is when pollutants start showing up out of the blue. We had problems with Bromine, Boron, and Barium. Andre is super anal about QC and money has never been his thing. He won’t compromise on elements. He’ll pay 3x more if he needs to. He recently sent several ICP-MS out on multiple suspected sources to track down why these elements were becoming elevated. Not crazy high, but high enough to make you wonder and look for the source.

Arm and Hammer:

Confidential Mag brand:

Confidential Kalk brand:

 

[Reefahholic]

Confidential Strontium:

Confidential Alkalinity:

 

[Reefahholic]

Sorry about the “German” format above. Somebody forgot to click the button. :-) Maybe because he’s German. Lol.

Should look like this:

 

[BigMonkeyBrain]

The Oceans of the World are Man's sewer and trashcan. Every developing country and developed countries including ours is guilty. Just consider all of the inputs, rivers etc., every conceivable natural element has washed out into the Ocean - and polluted with factory waste ( some unnatural elements, unnatural chemicals ) for two centuries now. Trash barges dumping off of the Atlantic shelf. Our beach front cities have had a sewer pipe out into the Ocean since the city was formed.

I hear comparisons to natural sea water - when were these tests performed? Two centuries ago or when Man developed the means to perform the tests?


Even with being confronted with scientific facts we still choose our druthers ?

Probably happens !

 

[Reefahholic]

The Oceans of the World are Man's sewer and trashcan. Every developing country and developed countries including ours is guilty. Just consider all of the inputs, rivers etc., every conceivable natural element has washed out into the Ocean - and polluted with factory waste ( some unnatural elements, unnatural chemicals ) for two centuries now. Trash barges dumping off of the Atlantic shelf. Our beach front cities have had a sewer pipe out into the Ocean since the city was formed.

I hear comparisons to natural sea water - when were these tests performed? Two centuries ago or when Man developed the means to perform the tests?


Even with being confronted with scientific facts we still choose our druthers ?

Probably happens !

You make a good point!

That’s the sad truth. I’ve been a surfer for a good 35 years. I’ve surfed more than one place (not here in the US) with turds floating though the lineup. Turns out, many foreign countries are dirt poor (shocker), and it’s normal to poop in the river or run a pipe to the ocean. Actually I take that back. There were two piers here in Texas that had small bathrooms on the pier with a hole straight to the ocean. Lol.

I guess some of the most remote places would be ideal for sample comparison. Outter Fiji, some Indo islands (definitely not Bali!), Western Australia, etc..

I’m still a big believer in consumption of elements. We know some elements get into the coral skeletons simply by being in the same environment, but I’d like to think that elements we see being heavily consumed are beneficial. A system won’t drink unless it likes the element IMO. Dose some Dawn Soap, Windex, Lysol, or Mustard into the system, and see if she’ll drink. HeHe.

What I’d like to understand is if there’s other elements besides Phosphate that will bind to rock and sand, or become absorbed by plastics, stainless steel, titanium, or anything besides rock and sand that would commonly be found in a running system.

 

[BigMonkeyBrain]

You make a good point!

That’s the sad truth. I’ve been a surfer for a good 35 years. I’ve surfed more than one place (not here in the US) with turds floating though the lineup. Turns out, many foreign countries are dirt poor and it’s normal poop in the river or run a pipe to the ocean. Actually I take that back. There were two piers here in Texas that had small bathrooms on the pier with a hole straight to the ocean. Lol.

I guess some of the most remote places would be the best places to get a good sample comparison. Outter Fiji, some Indo islands (definitely not Bali!), Western Australia, etc..

I’m still a big believer in consumption of elements. We know some elements get into the coral skeletons simply by being in the same environment, but I’d like to think that elements we see being heavily consumed are beneficial. A system won’t drink unless it likes the element IMO. Dose some Dawn Soap, Windex, Lysol, or Mustard into the system, and see if she’ll drink. HeHe.

What I’d like to understand is if there’s other elements besides Phosphate that will bind to rock and sand, or become absorbed by plastics, stainless steel, titanium, or anything besides rock and sand that would commonly be found in a running system.

Interesting ! I am looking into "Pseudomonas (sp.) is a gram-negative bacteria which in large quantities can cause fin-rot in fish and red leg in amphibians." - 'https://www.theaquariumwiki.com/wiki/Pseudomonas'

"the phosphate solubilizing bacterial isolate was identified as Pseudomonas sp." - 'https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S151218871630046X'

'https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphate_solubilizing_bacteria'


Probably happens !

 

[Nburg's Reef]

I disagree. If you look at a system with tight chemistry, and a system with weak chemistry, there is a clear difference. More intense color and faster growth. It’s not only about color and growth though. It’s about minimizing problems and creating more stability.

We can’t compare a newbie reefer against a seasoned pro either. You have to have a level playing field.

If you put two seasoned pros together with equal ability, and let one slack on chemistry (many elements are low or depleted), and the other keep the entire chemistry in check, the winner will be quite clear. I’ve never seen a nice tank with poor chemistry. I’ve seen some large pale 10 yr old colonies though.

Nobody has ever argued that you can’t grow/color corals with “crap” chemistry, but they will grow much faster and produce better colors with stronger chemistry.

Is this really where we’ve arrived in 2023-2024? “My chemistry sucks, but my tank is amazing, and just as good as any other tank out there.” Is that the argument.? :)

I don't think you need to dose elements to have good chemistry. Are you saying there was never a good reef tank before the wide spread introduction of ICP and trace elements? Obviously its hard to have a good reef with crap chemistry, my argument is chemistry isn't that hard if you're not lazy. Also not saying the moonshiners/triton and whatever else method doesn't have results, just that there is a lot of wand waving and "trust me bro" marketing with it.

 

[blecki]

I keep hearing about this moonshiners method. Is there a source on it? Any resources that aren't on facebook?

 

[Dennis Cartier]

I keep hearing about this moonshiners method. Is there a source on it? Any resources that aren't on facebook?

https://www.reefmoonshiners.com/

 

[X-37B]

Detecting elements in coral skeletons is zero evidence of biological role or utility. Many ions, perhaps nearly all, get accidentally incorporated into depositing calcium carbonate, whether it is done by a coral or simple abiotic (nonbiological) precipitation.

Even plutonium is incorporated into coral skeletons.

Time to locate some plutonium. I heard it makes corals glow without the blue light, lol.
Sorry could not resist.

 

[Reefahholic]

Time to locate some plutonium. I heard it makes corals glow without the blue light, lol.
Sorry could not resist.

I love it. PE is insane! Lol

 

[Reefahholic]

Mr. Saltwater tank is onboard! :-)

 

[Reefahholic]

Obviously its hard to have a good reef with crap chemistry, my argument is chemistry isn't that hard if you're not lazy.

I don't think you need to dose elements to have good chemistry.

I won’t argue. :-) Just let me ask one question. This is a honest question.

How does one achieve excellent chemistry that is better than just “good.” How do you do it?

 

[Pod_01]

Are you saying there was never a good reef tank before the wide spread introduction of ICP and trace elements?

I see this a lot and it kind of implies to me that there is regression in reef keeping knowledge. Something was lost and now we need to focus on trace elements or PO4 etc…
But at the same time perhaps there is some truth to the observations. From what I understand few years back 10+ people used live rock, people could buy colonies for lot less vs. the miniature frags available today, replace losses easily etc… Fish availability was better and price as well. So I suspect you could have a better reef from the start vs. now that lot more effort is required to get decent working reef tank.

Also I see long time reefers use calc reactor and that is really another form of trace element dosing if you use old coral skeleton. ICP just tells you what else is possibly missing.