Elements with No Known Biological Role

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy just a question and probably a silly question, hopefully not too off topic.
But can element be important yet not being consumed?
Best example I can think of is air. We need air for oxygen but if air was 100% oxygen we would be in trouble, burn up and all. But air is 75% Nitrogen and that makes it stable.

I think some of these elements perform same functions in sea water. Just don’t ask me where they go if the organisms don’t use them like Floride etc… I suspect part of the problem is that the reef tank doesn’t function like the ocean or at least mine doesn’t.

I find Iodine fascinating, I know your general opinion and experience. But from my experience with my tank I can now tell when it is low. Things do not look right, polyps are retracted etc.. I do ICP pour in the magic potion and WOW few days later things look better. I am always adjusting from low level back to 0.065. I don’t get but it works maybe a placebo but things look better.

I don’t know of a chemical that organisms need that isn’t taken inside of them, but they need not actually retain it. An adult human, for example, needs quite a few dietary components which do not accumulate. They are at a steady state.

I’m certainly open to the idea that some corals benefit from iodine. I just did not observe it myself. What did you dose and what looks better?

 

[Pod_01]

I don’t know of a chemical that organisms need that isn’t taken inside of them, but they need not actually retain it. An adult human, for example, needs quite a few dietary components which do not accumulate. They are at a steady state.

I’m certainly open to the idea that some corals benefit from iodine. I just did not observe it myself. What did you dose and what looks better?

Good question on the dosing, I used this:

What I observed, well my tank is a collection of all sort of corals that survived. Big noticeable observation is that devils hand coral and duncan coral (not sure why) they both opens up nicely. Before that they look unhappy and usually these are my best indicator corals. SPS as well look better after, polyps look fuller not semi deflated. Not all but general trend.

Like I said just an observation.
Also algae acts odd when added it slows down growth and as Iodine is depletes the algae starts to take off. Almost as if corals slow down their process, algae accelerates.

I always go from depleted level and I never intentionally added over the 0.06 level. I learned some time ago for reef tank less seems to be more LOL.

As an aside I do add some of the other missing trace elements but they are not as consistent at being depleted. I am referring to this group:

No idea what happened with Mo, never added it. Not sure how it got so high but now it is on down trajectory.
Fe I also don’t add, when I tried it led to algae bloom and it seems to be creeping up. But other times it is zero.

 

[Doctorgori]

Randy just a question and probably a silly question, hopefully not too off topic.
But can element be important yet not being consumed?
Best example I can think of is air. We need air for oxygen but if air was 100% oxygen we would be in trouble, burn up and all. But air is 75% Nitrogen and that makes it stable.

I think some of these elements perform same functions in sea water. Just don’t ask me where they go if the organisms don’t use them like Floride etc… I suspect part of the problem is that the reef tank doesn’t function like the ocean or at least mine doesn’t.

I find Iodine fascinating, I know your general opinion and experience. But from my experience with my tank I can now tell when it is low. Things do not look right, polyps are retracted etc.. I do ICP pour in the magic potion and WOW few days later things look better. I am always adjusting from low level back to 0.065. I don’t get but it works maybe a placebo but things look better.

I wanted to post a similar question but lost the nerve.
I used to use this stuff called “Reef Plus” and I also used to dose Iodine. No clue what was in Reef Plus but I would swear things looked way more “perky” after dosing it. I quit using it because I could not nail down a dosage, system or consumption rate past “willy nilly”…

I’m certainly open to the idea that some corals benefit from iodine. I just did not observe it myself. What did you dose and what looks better?

Randy, as far as I’m concerned whatever you say goes, but the thing with iodine has always bugged me. I don’t think I’m the only reefer who has noticed some positive effects from dosing it, esp with some of the more aggressive softies like xenia and star polyps, et et…
But admittedly the dosing was never with the benefit of testing, nor could any strong correlation be assigned to a dosage/time/growth analysis…. TBH I quit dosing it …. still just can’t help but wonder… wish there was more “professional” analysis of it

 

[Reefahholic]

The magnitude of the effect says nothing about the utility of incorporation.

Barium, which is chemically similar to calcium and strontium, is incorporated into depositing aragonite, whether a coral drives it or it is random precipitation

There's nothing special about incorporation as an indicator of utility.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326024529_Barium_partitioning_in_calcite_and_aragonite_as_a_function_of_growth_rate

How many of which elements
do you suspect are being incorporated into aragonite by random precipitation? If it’s incorporation, that should lead to “saturation.” An infinite regress of elements isn’t possible. Whatever goes in will eventually leach out “if it’s excessive” which in this case it is. I’d agree if it’s being incorporated into the aragonite, becomes saturated, and then leaches out. The corals would still be utilizing it the same as leaching phosphate from dry rock or sand. Remember, some of these trace element programs/methods have been going for 5-10 years now, and nobody is seeing problems with leaching elements or instability. If elements are leaching, the corals and microorganisms must be using it, otherwise there would be buildup. So I would agree with you if that could be what’s happening here. Nothing else really makes much sense. You can’t dose 50 bottles of barium for 5 years and not have some buildup if nothing is using it. That’s just illogical to me. Just like in my current tank…the dry rock absorbed the PO4 like a sponge for 1 full year! I never thought it was going to stop, but it finally hit a saturation point, started to stabilize, and then leached back out a little until it stabilized again. The same should hold true for any element. Nothing can be added forever into 4 glass panels unless it’s being used. I see the results in biomass, and that is why the system continues to use more.

 

[Doctorgori]

Also @Reefahholic … odd as it may sound, I would not rule out some of the effects/consumption being akin to a “food chain” accumulation thing similar to DDT & eagle eggs

 

[Reefahholic]

I know you are a big fan of this method, but if we are to address the topic of ions with no biological role, results of a whole method dosing many ions are not particularly useful.

It’s not just the Moonshine Method. If I wasn’t doing this it would be ACI Method or if I was in Europe it would be Fauna Marin or Triton. I a fan of trace element dosing in general because I’ve never seen this much difference in the corals. I do agree that some elements are much more important than others. I’m just not quite sold that if something is consistently being used for years that it’s not important. We’re not taking about a few days or months. We’re talking about bottles and bottles for years.

But air is 75% Nitrogen and that makes it stable.

78-79% lol

 

[Reefahholic]

Also @Reefahholic … odd as it may sound, I would not rule out some of the effects/consumption being akin to a “food chain” accumulation thing similar to DDT & eagle eggs

You lost me. Elaborate…

 

[Reefahholic]

You have to start from the top down. When you correct like this things start to fall in line better. Some elements depend on others. This is not a perfect example or set in stone, but this is generally how I approach my corrections.

Example:

1. Salinity (35 psu)
2. ALK,CAL,MAG
3. Strontium, Potassium, Boron
4. Halogens- Iodine, Fluoride, Bromine, Chlorine…
(Chloride is different form of Chlorine.)
5. Nutrients- Phosphorus & Nitrogen
6. Trace Elements

The ultra traces are fairly consistent after you get everything else dialed in, and remember…OES doesn’t have the sensitivity for 6-9 of those ultra traces.

 

[Doctorgori]

You lost me. Elaborate…

In a few earlier post You mentioned/elaborated on “consumption” and the actual methods of element transport and/or where the actual elements are used or absorbed, et et (paraphrasing) …dunno if you are old enough to remember but well the whole DDT thing from the 70’s comes to mind here; Eagles don’t consume DDT, nor even come in direct contact with it, yet their eggs got thinner because of it and we almost lost many of our birds of prey…

I’ll spare you the Google worthy story, but aside from the usual suspects/political players fighting tooth and nail to ban it, turns out the reason eagles got poisoned was via accumulation up the food chain (Google this thing, the long story is sorta out of scope)
Anyway…
Its totally possible some (again “Some’) of the causes/effects/measurements are affected and/or skewed by similar bio-mechanisms …I mean, who knows? maybe some elements get locked up at different stages and when measured could be held by bacteria and the next time you ICP the target element is back in the water, or not…

 

[Reefahholic]

@Pod_01

 

[Reefahholic]

You mentioned/elaborated on “consumption” and the actual methods of transport and/or where the actual elements are used or absorbed … if you are old enough to remember well the whole DDT thing from the 0’s to mind here; Eagles don’t consume DDT, nor even come in direct contact with it, yet their eggs got thinner because of it and we almost lost many of our birds of prey…
I’ll spare you the whole story, but aside from the usual suspects/political players fighting tooth and nail to ban it, turns out the reason eagles got poisoned was via accumulation up the food chain (Google this thing, the long story is sorta out of scope)
Anyway…
Its totally possible some (again “Some’) of the causes/effects/measurements are affected and/or skewed by similar bio-mechanisms …I mean, who knows?

Ok, I got cha now. Interesting story. Did not know that.

 

[Pod_01]

78-79% lol

Hmmmm… what is few percent between friends lol.

I’m just not quite sold that if something is consistently being used for years that it’s not important.

So out of curiosity which ones do you find that fit into this category?
For example I used AFR but over time I noticed that some traces got above the max and Iodine consistently was low. I now switched to 2 part with FM Trace 1,2,3 and I am still adding Iodine.
For me Iodine is the trouble maker.
Also with AFR my Alk was low and Calcium elevated, drove me insane. I like the system for simplicity and it helped me a lot to figure out other things but my system just doesn’t follow the assumed consumption.

 

[Reefahholic]

Ok, I just now figured out where some of the barium went. Lol.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

All I know is that I can relate…. Take beer for example. I can consume bottles and bottles and bottles of it! I mean growth……talk about growth…. Look at this belly! Based on that, it must be good for me! Now if I could get you guys to talk to my doctors about it, I would appreciate it. Just had to have some fun here

 

[Reefahholic]

Hmmmm… what is few percent between friends lol.


So out of curiosity which ones do you find that fit into this category?
For example I used AFR but over time I noticed that some traces got above the max and Iodine consistently was low. I now switched to 2 part with FM Trace 1,2,3 and I am still adding Iodine.
For me Iodine is the trouble maker.
Also with AFR my Alk was low and Calcium elevated, drove me insane. I like the system for simplicity and it helped me a lot to figure out other things but my system just doesn’t follow the assumed consumption.

The same happened to me when I tried to use 1-4 bottle methods before I had a deeper understanding. Once you put a bunch of elements into one solution at a predetermined ratio, you lose the ability to control the elements.

Also, once you get all the other other elements stabilized, and once your dosing iodine consistently it becomes quite stable. When a system comes back very low or depleted on iodine, and you start to dose up there will be some inconsistency at first. Once you get up to target and your dosing consistently It’s very stable.

My advice is to move to method where you have full control over everything. Whatever method is easy and affordable to you. Maybe some elements are of little importance, but if that turns out to be the case, they’re certainly not hurting anything right now. I’m not trying to find out how important they are by stopping them, because the corals are looking more healthy than they ever have. Lol.

I’m in a situation to where if my ears aren’t hearing logic, those elements will keep going into the tank until I find out otherwise. Haha.

 

[Reefahholic]

All I know is that I can relate…. Take beer for example. I can consume bottles and bottles and bottles of it! I mean growth……talk about growth…. Look at this belly! Based on that, it must be good for me! Now if I could get you guys to talk to my doctors about it, I would appreciate it. Just had to have some fun here

Yes, but we can clearly see the net result in biomass.

 

[Reefahholic]

@Pod_01 try to make sure your Fluoride level is on target also. From what I understand, there’s a functional relationship between Fluoride and Iodine. If Fluoride is depleted, you may have much more difficulty dialing in Iodine.

 

[Reefahholic]

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Good question on the dosing, I used this:

What I observed, well my tank is a collection of all sort of corals that survived. Big noticeable observation is that devils hand coral and duncan coral (not sure why) they both opens up nicely. Before that they look unhappy and usually these are my best indicator corals. SPS as well look better after, polyps look fuller not semi deflated. Not all but general trend.

Like I said just an observation.
Also algae acts odd when added it slows down growth and as Iodine is depletes the algae starts to take off. Almost as if corals slow down their process, algae accelerates.

I always go from depleted level and I never intentionally added over the 0.06 level. I learned some time ago for reef tank less seems to be more LOL.

As an aside I do add some of the other missing trace elements but they are not as consistent at being depleted. I am referring to this group:

No idea what happened with Mo, never added it. Not sure how it got so high but now it is on down trajectory.
Fe I also don’t add, when I tried it led to algae bloom and it seems to be creeping up. But other times it is zero.

What color is that additive? Clear or purplish? Too bad companies do not actually list ingredients. The reason I ask is because some iodine compounds, such as I2, will impact other trace elements and effects (good or bad) may be due either to the iodine or to the other trace elements.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Pod_01 try to make sure your Fluoride level is on target also. From what I understand, there’s a functional relationship between Fluoride and Iodine. If Fluoride is depleted, you may have much more difficulty dialing in Iodine.

What is the basis of that statement?