Elements with No Known Biological Role

[Reefahholic]

I see this a lot and it kind of implies to me that there is regression in reef keeping knowledge. Something was lost and now we need to focus on trace elements or PO4 etc…
But at the same time perhaps there is some truth to the observations. From what I understand few years back 10+ people used live rock, people could buy colonies for lot less vs. the miniature frags available today, replace losses easily etc… Fish availability was better and price as well. So I suspect you could have a better reef from the start vs. now that lot more effort is required to get decent working reef tank.

Also I see long time reefers use calc reactor and that is really another form of trace element dosing if you use old coral skeleton. ICP just tells you what else is possibly missing.

I don’t think anything was lost…I’d argue that something has been found. Something they only could have dreamed about back then. There were some nice older tanks back in the day no doubt, but IMO only a few would be able to compete against some of the insane colors and growth we get today. One that comes to mind is Krzysztof Tryc’s Zeovit Reef. The “majority” of reefers back then were not experiencing the level of success, color, growth, etc..that we are today. A lot of that has been the result of better chemistry, equipment, and automation.

Today I’ve seen wall to wall Acro tanks with 24-36” colonies in just 2-3 years. Look at Coral Fragz current tank, he’s proof! There’s not many (if any at all) from 20-30 years ago who could come close to matching his growth speed which has a lot to do with his trace element dosing and automation. Having the capability to spread doses out, and automate everything makes a big difference with stability. If you look at Hydro’s Dynamic dosing…it’s insane. The stability is basically that of a calcium reactor.

Speaking of Calcium Reactors…I have one. That was a great advantage back then, and if you look at many of the TOTM’s on RC you’ll find several of them using a Calcium Reactor and Kalk. What did that accomplish? I’d say more trace elements, stability, and better pH. Yes, they do add back “some” trace elements if you use natural coral bones, but they don’t come close to adding back everything at good target levels. I still need to supplement a ton of elements.

I just see a level that we’re at today that wasn’t easily achievable back then for most reefers. Instead of trying to fight against it, I’ve jumped in to see for myself, and like Mr. Saltwater Tank said above…”my tank has never looked better.”

 

[hunterallen40]

We know some elements get into the coral skeletons simply by being in the same environment, but I’d like to think that elements we see being heavily consumed are beneficial. A system won’t drink unless it likes the element IMO. Dose some Dawn Soap, Windex, Lysol, or Mustard into the system, and see if she’ll drink. HeHe.

@Reefahholic you know we from the moonshiner group, and you know I'm on board with it.

This comparison is not reasonable. Those are not compounds that bond to coral skeleton (at least to my knowledge haha), and are not things we would dump in for very obvious reasons, namely toxicity.

I am starting to doubt, however, that rubidium, strontium, and barium should be dosed.

As has been explained by @Randy Holmes-Farley, the incorporation of those elements is because they are there. If you done more, it is consumed more. Is it important? I have no idea. From what I have learned to this point, I lean towards no. As I understand it, and as I wait a hasty correction from Dr. Farley, these elements are just capable of playing the role of calcium in the skeleton in the same way as magnesium. Magnesium gets added because it keeps calcium carbonate in solution. I'm not aware of any other role, and I've never heard any claims about color from it.

@Randy Holmes-Farley quick aside: hypothetically, could one use strontium/barium in place of magnesium? In other words, if we had a hypothetical system with zero magnesium and several-hundred ppm barium (not doing math to figure out the equivalent amount right now), would strontium/barium function the same way?

Anayway, I'm not going to dose these three for my corrections on my frag system. I have been dosing them for my display, and I'm not willing to change it up for the sake of changing things there... But the frag tank is there for experiments.

I think we should challenge the moonshiner beliefs instead of consistently asserting all of it as 100% true. Who knows, maybe the missing ingredient is to NOT dose these elements. To be 100% honest, though, I expect no difference without them. I will definitely keep people posted.

 

[Reefahholic]

My question is what would consume these elements so heavily and consistently other than coral or microorganisms such as bacteria?

In my brain there’s only two possible explanations:

1. I’ve literally seen my rock bind phosphate heavily for one year. Are any elements known to be bound by calcium carbonate surfaces? If so, to what degree? Are there any papers out there discussing that.? Please PM me if you’ve seen one, because I’d like to read it.

2. The only other possible explanation would be absorption via plastics or something that “we” put into the system.

Other than the two possibilities above I can’t think of anything else. Nothing really makes sense to me. I will say this…I’ve had so many pods in this tank that it boggles my mind. I’ve never had this many pods in any previous tank. So I’m pretty sure that microorganisms are using these elements as well.

Some of these articles below are quite fascinating to say the least, and reminds me how little we actually know. Surprisingly, here lately I keep wanting to read more and more about the microorganisms rather than the corals. It seems that his world at a molecular level is really being underestimated in our hobby. Mark my words, in 5 years we’ll learn how important these elements actually are.

A lot of biological and biochemical processes seem to be trace metal-dependent. I don’t know this, but I’d be willing to bet that when these trace metals are very low or nearly absent in the ocean, bacteria and other microorganisms are able to obtain them much easier there than they could in our glass boxes. The environment is way more favorable. I’m glad I don’t limit them in my system.

https://www.whoi.edu/cms/files/MorelMilliganSaito_TOG_35066.pdf

Specific Effect of Trace Metals on Marine Heterotrophic Microbial Activity and Diversity: Key Role of Iron and Zinc and Hydrocarbon-Degrading Bacteria

Marine microbes are an important control on the biogeochemical cycling of trace metals, but simultaneously, these metals can control the growth of microorganisms and the cycling of major nutrients like C and N. However, studies on the response/limitation of microorganisms to trace metals have...

www.frontiersin.org

 

[Miami Reef]

Are any elements known to be bound by calcium carbonate surfaces? If so, to what degree?

Copper is one example.

Just like phosphate, it depends on the concentration. The higher the concentration, the more will bind. The rocks and bulk water will be in constant equilibrium. If the bulk water drops in concentration, the bound elements will unbind to find equilibrium.

 

[Reefahholic]

As has been explained by @Randy Holmes-Farley, the incorporation of those elements is because they are there. If you dose more, it is consumed more. Is it important? I have no idea.

I don’t think they would be consumed to the extent that they are. I mean we’ve literally seen some systems drink bottles and bottles of Barium, Fluoride, Moly, etc. I think there’s a distinction between consumption and absorption. Consumption should go on forever if the element is preferred, but absorption would be limited, and at some point it should slow down or stop.

I am very curious about absorption though especially with plastics. Or as I mentioned above…would the rock or sand be able to bind some of these elements to this extent.?

 

[Reefahholic]

Copper is one example.

Just like phosphate, it depends on the concentration. The higher the concentration, the more will bind. The rocks and bulk water will be in constant equilibrium. If the bulk water drops in concentration, the bound elements will unbind to find equilibrium.

I forgot about Copper. My Copper consumption has been increasing every ICP, but many other trace metals and elements with it. So that is a good sign I guess. Hopefully not binding to the rock or sand. That would probably be pretty easy to test if suspected.

 

[hunterallen40]

My question is what would consume these elements so heavily and consistently other than coral or microorganisms such as bacteria?

What would you consider heavy consumption? I don't think the amount of barium you add to your system is anywhere close to the amount of most things people dose.

Take, for example, the reef moonshiner barium supplement. That supplement has a concentration of 100 ppm. That is comparitively low in concentration when compared to, for example, the fluoride supplement (which is 1000 ppm). Does your correction dose (if you sum each day's dose) for barium exceed 10x the dose for fluoride?

 

[Reefahholic]

What would you consider heavy consumption? I don't think the amount of barium you add to your system is anywhere close to the amount of most things people dose.

Take, for example, the reef moonshiner barium supplement. That supplement has a concentration of 100 ppm. That is comparitively low in concentration when compared to, for example, the fluoride supplement (which is 1000 ppm). Does your correction dose (if you sum each day's dose) for barium exceed 10x the dose for fluoride?

It really depends on potency, but just a lot of a certain element being consumed for a specific volume. If we’re adding 1000’s of ppm’s of Fluoride or Barium, and other tanks aren’t adding any.

I mean at what point do you say for sure this is consumption vs absorption? I don’t think anything can absorb this much of certain elements for months/years, and not have a longterm leaching effect later. This has not happened, because Moonshine and other similar methods all dose the same elements with excellent results. Triton, Chris Meckley, Fauna Marin, etc.

Something is apparently using these elements frequently in large volumes, and if it wasn’t being used I’d expect to see a buildup of that element. I’d also expect to see corals not looking so well. The same result I’d expect with excessive Alkalinity or Iodine dosing. Dose too much of those two, and see what happens since you didn’t like my other Windex analogy.

I just really think the Corals, Bacteria, and other microorganisms are using it. The bacteria multiply like crazy and feed the corals and it’s a continuous cycle that never ends. That’s likely why we continue to see the demand.

 

[hunterallen40]

I mean at what point do you say for sure this is consumption vs absorption? I don’t think anything can absorb this much of certain elements for months/years, and not have a longterm leaching effect later.

Absorption can be a lot of things. As we have discussed, these elements are found in the skeletons of corals. If that's absorption, then they will only be released if the skeleton decomposes in something like a calcium reactor.

We don't have alkalinity, calcium, or magnesium leaching out of the coral skeletons, so I would not expect to have leaching barium / strontium / rubidium.

Something is apparently using these elements frequently in large volumes, and if it wasn’t being used I’d expect to see a buildup of that element.

That buildup is your coral growth . They definitely get put somewhere, the only doubt is that they really need to be there.

I’d also expect to see corals not looking so well.

Maybe, but, if they have no biological role whatsoever, they would not necessarily have a negative one. If they have no effect at all, there will not be a negative impact.

I just want to point out that we know 100% that dosing rubidium and barium at 2x the moonshiner target concentration (both of which are ~2x NSW levels), has absolutely no negative effects. That means 4x NSW does not harm the corals to our knowledge. I don't know of other elements that can be dosed that highly without ill-effects.

I just really think the Corals, Bacteria, and other microorganisms are using it.

I think this is true for several elements, and has been demonstrated to be the case for many elements. I am also convinced at this point that it is not the case for all.

I am a moonshiner, and follow the method. I wrote an app for it. I am on board! I am just now convinced that we are wrong about certain elements and their determined importance.

 

[Acros]

Could any of these dosed elements be precipitating out of water? It would be interesting to see if moonshiners result in corals integrating these elements at a higher rate into their skeleton. Something more than ‘trust me bro’ or ICP evidence. Something where the actual coral skeletons from a moonshiners tank are studied.

 

[Reefahholic]

I am just now convinced that we are wrong about certain elements and their determined importance.

Please stop those elements immediately and mail them to me.

 

[Reefahholic]

Could any of these dosed elements be precipitating out of water?

That’s actually a great question, and possible with some elements, but unlikely because corrections come out too close.

 

[Reefahholic]

I think this video sums up my thoughts and experiences pretty well:

Skip to about 12:00 mark.

Rappin' With ReefBum: Guest Claude Schuhmacher, Fauna Marin

Rappin' With ReefBum is a LIVE talk show with host Keith Berkelhamer and guests from the reef keeping community. In this episode I chat with Claude Schuhmach...

www.youtube.com

 

[saltyfins]

I think this video sums up my thoughts and experiences pretty well:

Skip to about 12:00 mark.

Rappin' With ReefBum: Guest Claude Schuhmacher, Fauna Marin

Rappin' With ReefBum is a LIVE talk show with host Keith Berkelhamer and guests from the reef keeping community. In this episode I chat with Claude Schuhmach...

www.youtube.com

This is excellent!!

 

[Reefahholic]

This was also a great talk by Chris Meckley if any of you guys have Facebook.

https://m.facebook.com/watch/live/?ref=watch_permalink&v=1921483224871545&wtsid=rdr_0l1v9X0mfZEgDcz9I

ReefBum echoing the same as everybody else. Better colors and growth.

 

[Reefahholic]

New video from Claude. I figured some of you research guys would enjoy this even though we may not all agree, but we’re all still hardcore reefers.

 

[Rocketfish]

That is great growth for a Nano tank. I don’t see how you guys do it!

Also, how long after that Iodine spike did you see the STN/RTN event.?

I saw the STN event when I was trying to reduce the Iodine, but it was not just high iodine. Part of the problem was that I had sold a very large, 25+ head Hammer coral and it altered my Calcium and KH depletion. I adjusted pretty fast, but within a week of that adjust ment, and with the Iodine still over 700, I saw the STN event. I was able to save a few frags of the yellow tips, but it took out the rest of the colony in less than 16 hours from first notice to complete destruction. As with any event like that, it is likely not any one thing, but a combination of things that set it off. Still, I was fortunate. That was the only coral affected, and everything else has done fine since including the frags from that colony.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t think they would be consumed to the extent that they are. I mean we’ve literally seen some systems drink bottles and bottles of Barium, Fluoride, Moly, etc. I think there’s a distinction between consumption and absorption. Consumption should go on forever if the element is preferred, but absorption would be limited, and at some point it should slow down or stop.

I am very curious about absorption though especially with plastics. Or as I mentioned above…would the rock or sand be able to bind some of these elements to this extent.?

The magnitude of the effect says nothing about the utility of incorporation.

Barium, which is chemically similar to calcium and strontium, is incorporated into depositing aragonite, whether a coral drives it or it is random precipitation

There's nothing special about incorporation as an indicator of utility.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326024529_Barium_partitioning_in_calcite_and_aragonite_as_a_function_of_growth_rate

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

ReefBum echoing the same as everybody else. Better colors and growth.

I know you are a big fan of this method, but if we are to address the topic of ions with no biological role, results of a whole method dosing many ions are not particularly useful.

Best one can say is that one can get these results despite dosing it, so it does not prevent getting your suggested result. Some of the components may be useless, and no amount of cheerleading the method can say otherwise.

 

[Pod_01]

I know you are a big fan of this method, but if we are to address the topic of ions with no biological role, results of a whole method dosing many ions are not particularly useful.

Best one can say is that one can get these results despite dosing it, so it does not prevent getting your suggested result. Some of the components may be useless, and no amount of cheerleading the method can say otherwise.

Randy just a question and probably a silly question, hopefully not too off topic.
But can element be important yet not being consumed?
Best example I can think of is air. We need air for oxygen but if air was 100% oxygen we would be in trouble, burn up and all. But air is 75% Nitrogen and that makes it stable.

I think some of these elements perform same functions in sea water. Just don’t ask me where they go if the organisms don’t use them like Floride etc… I suspect part of the problem is that the reef tank doesn’t function like the ocean or at least mine doesn’t.

I find Iodine fascinating, I know your general opinion and experience. But from my experience with my tank I can now tell when it is low. Things do not look right, polyps are retracted etc.. I do ICP pour in the magic potion and WOW few days later things look better. I am always adjusting from low level back to 0.065. I don’t get but it works maybe a placebo but things look better.