Elements with No Known Biological Role

[Hans-Werner]

- jumping out at me: copper is @ 516ppb, Ca 8503, Mg 6538 …
…is the copper a concern? and should I even dose 2pt? (joking, sort of)

For sure it is not from the K+ Elements since their copper concentration is very low. Most likely source is the pipework of the tap water. Yes, for sure 516 ppb Cu is a concern, a big concenr in my opinion.

- Is in your opinion/experience is there any evidence specific elements equate to specific colors? or specific visual results? (other than the previously mentioned iodine/gorgonian polyp observation)

I am not sure if specific elements equate exactly to specific colors, but in a certain way it does. Several elements like Cu, Fe, Mn and iodine influence the production and detoxification of reactive oxygen species. The balance in these processes is important and will influence mainly the fluorescent colors like greens and reds. I don't think it is really as specific as it is sometimes claimed, I think it is more a matter of the balance, not a direct effect.

- Would you say Tropic - Marins approach to trace dosing is ONLY including those elements known/proven to have a biological role?
OR is the purpose of A- & K+ Elements for getting things back in balance “chemically” in general? (for perhaps for a multitude of reasons outside of a strictly metabolic/biological coral uptake/depletion role?)

I wouldn't just say, I developed the products and I am sure that Tropic Marin's approach to trace dosing is only including those elements known/proven to have a biological role.

For sure lead easily forms carbonates and behaves quite similar to calcium regarding incorporation into aragonitic coral skeletons. You can expect that in a reef tank with growing corals lead is quite rapidly depleted from the water. Nevertheless we do not make any attempts to dose lead.

when used as directed, are there any risk/negative side effects of overdosing? For example, overdosing Iodine (for instance) when trying to correct for a depletion of Bromine (for instance) ….

The K+ and A- Elements are not primarily meant to correct concentrations but to compensate for consumption. If an ICP analysis comes back with low bromine concentrations the first thing I would check is the salt I use.

Bromine doesn't just disappear, just as iodine doesn't. Both are consumed i. e. for hardening of proteins that form exoskeletons of gorgonians, sponges and crustaceans. So it is likely that they are consumed in a certain ratio.

It's also funny to me that K+ apparently does not have potassium

How much potassium is consumed by coral or coralline algal growth? It is very easy to keep potassium concentrations in check with water changes, the consumption is low. If you have an analysis with a potassium deficit it is easy to dose potassium directly. There is no need to include it in a routine dosage which would impede dosing when potassium concentration is already correct or even high.

Or do you allude to the name? It stands for Kations. Potassium was no theme yet when we named the product in the early first decade of this century.

 

[Reefahholic]

What is the basis of that statement?

In Europe, It is thought that a
Functional relationship exists between Iodine and Fluoride. If the Fluoride level is low, Iodine is unstable and hard to dial in.

FUNCTIONAL RELATIONS

These are important relations of different water values. These measuring values show important relations. If values are set correctly, also their relation to corresponding values are within the reference range. If values show a strong shift, you need to adjust them according to the recommended values in order to fix the functional relations.

Chloride : Sulphate – relation value for determining the ion ratio

Sulphate : Sulphur – relation value for the display of sulphur compounds

Magnesium : Calcium – relation value to ensure the stability of the calcium balance

Calcium : Strontium – relative value coral growth

Potassium : Calcium – relation value coral growth, coral colour

Bromide : Fluoride – relation value inhibitors, parasite protection

Fluoride : Iodine – relation value halogens, fluorescence value, state of health

 

[Reefahholic]

For sure it is not from the K+ Elements since their copper concentration is very low. Most likely source is the pipework of the tap water. Yes, for sure 516 ppb Cu is a concern, a big concenr in my opinion.

Agreed…516 is sky high!

Anything over 20 ug/L is getting up there. I’ve seen Acro’s thriving in 20+ but not too much higher than that.

Needs to check the RODI membrane and filters to rule out source water or if it’s an additive. Also deploy Seachem Cuprisorb. If not source water, I’d definitely start doing water changes. There’s no way it’s AFR. I’ve seen a lot of those ICP’s.

 

[Reefahholic]

@Doctorgori if your Cu value is 500+ I’d flush the system immediately (if not source water), and add an absorber like Seachem Cuprisorb.

I missed that somehow. Yikes!

 

[Doctorgori]

Agreed…516 is sky high!

Anything over 20 ug/L is getting up there. I’ve seen Acro’s thriving in 20+ but not too much higher than that.

Needs to check the RODI membrane and filters to rule out source water or if it’s an additive. Also deploy Seachem Cuprisorb. If not source water, I’d definitely start doing water changes. There’s no way it’s AFR. I’ve seen a lot of those ICP’s.

@Doctorgori if your Cu value is 500+ I’d flush the system immediately (if not source water), and add an absorber like Seachem Cuprisorb.

I missed that somehow. Yikes!

Yeah everything looks funky in that tank, clean, but funky… Every stick I put in that tank goes brown eventually, snail deaths are “per species”, trochus, odd ball turbos, narcissus; all dead….whereas Mexican & Checkered turbos live…its way past a statistical oddity…

BTW those levels were from my source water, I’m in SC, land of unchecked “de-regulated” development…

No RO yet, gonna need a plumber (long story) …will use Cuprisorb in the interim …. now I’m semi-panicking …appreciate it tho…

 

[Miami Reef]

It stands for Kations.

In America, we call it Cations. That might be where the confusion stems from.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In Europe, It is thought that a
Functional relationship exists between Iodine and Fluoride. If the Fluoride level is low, Iodine is unstable and hard to dial in.

So the basis is that someone in Europe thinks it?

I was hoping for either experimental or biochemical pathway evidence.

 

[hunterallen40]

Or do you allude to the name? It stands for Kations. Potassium was no theme yet when we named the product in the early first decade of this century

@Hans-Werner yes, I was just referring to the name. That's good to know, and makes a lot more sense. Thanks for clarifying!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Fluoride as something to get rid of, not to take up intentionally:

Membrane exporters of fluoride ion

Microorganisms contend with numerous and unusual chemical threats, and have evolved a catalogue of resistance mechanisms in response. One particularly ancient, pernicious threat is posed by fluoride ion (F[−] ), a common xenobiotic in natural ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"One particularly ancient, pernicious threat is posed by fluoride ion (F−), a common xenobiotic in natural environments that causes broad-spectrum harm to metabolic pathways."

"Nearly all microorganisms possess membrane proteins dedicated to the export of fluoride ion (F−)."

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A lot of fluoride uptake is binding to tissues:

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/environment/air-land-water/water/waterquality/water-quality-guidelines/approved-wqgs/fluoride-tech.pdf

"Fluoride accumulates in hard or mineralized tissues such as bones, teeth and invertebrate exoskeletons. In bone, the presumed process is Fion exchange in the hydroxyapatite complex. In the amorphous crustacean skeletons, most fluoride is likely to be simply CaF2 precipitated in the open matrix."


"Fish, mostly mullet, caught in a bay where fluoride-rich effluents were discharged, were found to havetissue fluoride levels 4 to 5 times higher than fish caught in a nearby unpolluted bay. Fluoride levels inthe unpolluted bay were about 1. 4 mg/L and in the two polluted areas were about 2 and 3 mg/L. Theserelatively low, but above background, fluoride levels caused disproportionately large increases in thefluoride of almost all fish tissues (Milhaud et al., 1981). T"

"Oyster tissues were found to accumulate fluoride when oysters were exposed to fluoride levelsexceeding 2 mg/L (Moore, 1969). Barnacles are good fluoride pollution level indicators since theyaccumulate fluoride in direct proportion to the ambient fluoride level (Barbaro et al., 1981)."

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Hans-Werner yes, I was just referring to the name. That's good to know, and makes a lot more sense. Thanks for clarifying!

I have always found that quite humorous myself.

 

[Hans-Werner]

@Hans-Werner yes, I was just referring to the name. That's good to know, and makes a lot more sense. Thanks for clarifying!

Yes, I got aware of the problem some time after the discussion around potassium came up but the product was long established at that time. I agree, we should think about renaming the trace elements solutions. We will think about it.

 

[Reefahholic]

So the basis is that someone in Europe thinks it?

I was hoping for either experimental or biochemical pathway evidence.

Claude seems to think so. Lol.

I wish we had more experimental or biochemical evidence for everything in this hobby!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Claude seems to think so. Lol.

I wish we had more experimental or biochemical evidence for everything in this hobby!

OK, thanks for the clarification.

 

[Reefahholic]

OK, thanks for the clarification.

We don’t have much evidence for anything in this hobby. So if one wants to find out what is going on with certain elements or why different situations are happening in a reef tank environment, I think a great place to start looking is with those who have ICP machines in-house. Those who collect everybody’s data from different countries, and have the ability to communicate with their lab technicians daily, who are able to see instant data with observations after corrections are made on their own farm systems, etc. Would that not be the guy you’d want to have a conversation with? A guy that’s probably done several million analyses and results 10-15 analyses with corrections daily on his own systems. He’s probably wrong about half of it, but what about the other half he got right? At some point you have to sit down, and start listening to people like that, because if you plan on waiting for peer reviewed papers, you may be waiting forever.

Even with the papers we will never know every biological role.

Also, speaking of observations…I have a UV still plumed into my display with that hard rubber tubing. The whole intake tube is full of purple coralline algae on the outside. As soon as my NO3 dropped below 50:1 it’s starting to grow this brown (almost like a turf) on the coralline algae, and the spots on the back panel. Before it was clear as could be. Even my rocks are starting to get darker. I’ll bring it back up to 50:1++ and see if it goes away. Let me grab a pic really quick. I’ll update later if it goes away.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

We don’t have much evidence for anything in this hobby.

I don't think that is true at all. There was strong and convincing evidence for every single thing I did in my tank, with a few exceptions that I treated as experiments and adjusted my procedures according to the result, if warranted.


What do you think I did that was not supported by strong evidence?

 

[Reefahholic]

I don't think that is true at all. There was strong and convincing evidence for every single thing I did in my tank, with a few exceptions that I treated as experiments and adjusted my procedures according to the result, if warranted.


What do you think I did that was not supported by strong evidence?

I never said you did anything crazy, but I see you are a risk taker! So it’s time to grab a AIO or something not to big and jump back in! Time for extensive ICP testing…remember those words.

 

[Hans-Werner]

We don’t have much evidence for anything in this hobby. So if one wants to find out what is going on with certain elements or why different situations are happening in a reef tank environment, I think a great place to start looking is with those who have ICP machines in-house.

I appreciate very much what Claude is doing, especially his database on his website.

Nevertheless we know the biochemical functions of the trace elements. They were subject of scientific research for maybe close to 100 years, driven mainly by agriculture and plant nutrition, but also by medicine and livestock farming.

What we have to do is to bring the observations into alignment with the functions. Also Claude tries to do this.

ICP-OES is of some help but is maybe a bit overestimated. In most tanks several trace metals are not found with ICP-OES because of the detection limits of this method. If they are found the effect may be different from the effect at lower concentrations. At elevated concentrations it may even be the opposite effect, for example producing reactive oxygen species rather than quenching ROS.

And, as mentioned above and also stressed by Claude, often ratios play some role.

Finally you often will be left with dosing, observing and interpreting the observations for the best explanations.

 

[Reefahholic]

I agree. I really appreciate what Claude is doing over there and also Christoph.

ICP-OES is of some help but is maybe a bit overestimated. In most tanks several trace metals are not found with ICP-OES because of the detection limits of this method. If they are found the effect may be different from the effect at lower concentrations. At elevated concentrations it may even be the opposite effect, for example producing reactive oxygen species rather than quenching ROS.

I keep trying to stress that. There about 6 trace metals that only show up on OES when already overdosed. There’s another 3 that are on the borderline. This is why most of us have now switched over to ICP-MS. This picture below illustrates this pretty well. Top is OES, bottom is MS. Turns out those 6-9 ultra trace elements are extremely important. I saw just how much color and growth were impacted in my own system.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree. I really appreciate what Claude is doing over there and also Christoph.



I keep trying to stress that. There about 6 trace metals that only show up on OES when already overdosed. There’s another 3 that are on the borderline. This is why most of us have now switched over to ICP-MS. This picture below illustrates this pretty well. Top is OES, bottom is MS. Turns out those 6-9 ultra trace elements are extremely important. I saw just how much color and growth were impacted in my own system.

I don't disagree with intent of the words, but I'm not understanding the pictures or what you intend them to mean.

Are these the same samples?

Nickel is above the target level by ICP-OES, but is shown in yellow. The value is nearly the same (a bit lower) by ICP-MS, but is shown in green.