Elements with No Known Biological Role

[biecacka]

I use moonshiners, about 18 months or so Some of my coral growth is astonishing to friends. Here is 11 months of one of my corals. Not the most growth ever recorded, but it’s not bad. But some others are growing fast as well but the colors of them stink.

corey

 

[Reefahholic]

I use moonshiners, about 18 months or so Some of my coral growth is astonishing to friends. Here is 11 months of one of my corals. Not the most growth ever recorded, but it’s not bad. But some others are growing fast as well but the colors of them stink.

corey

Looks like some pretty amazing growth. Send me your last ICP when you get a chance. I’m pretty sure the same thing happened to you as did me. OES is only good if you don’t have a tank full of fast growing acros, but even then at some point you have to transition over to MS, and dial those elements in tighter if you want the best growth and color. I’m positive we can get you there. Also, where are you nutrients at and PAR values?

 

[Hans-Werner]

Hans I have silly question. Here are you referring to Orthophosphate PO4 (the one we can measure with test kit)?
My head is still spinning from different forms of N and different forms of P.

You know, there are no silly questions (..., just stupid answers). For corals the kind of dissolved phosphate is not so important. The coral holobiont can make use of nearly all important forms of phosphate. The first kind of dissolved phosphate they will use is orthophosphate because it is easiest to use. The use of polyphosphates and organic phosphates requires some biochemical work, the excretion of alkaline phosphatase and exopolyphosphatase enzyms. These enzyms will break down polyphosphates (i. e. storage phosphates of bacteria and microalgae) and organic phosphates (like nucleotides) to orthophosphate which is taken up.

The second question/clarification I am curious about. The LED light and the phosphate level. Is this referring to the measurable PO4 or other form of P?

We have both results, phosphate level with photometer and test kit and calculated from ICP-OES analysis. I think at the concentrations I am referring to they are not too different.

@Hans-Werner I'm a big believer in phosphates, and will read that literature you linked later today, but could I ask you to expand a bit further as to where you think that balance may be?

I am not sure what you mean. The blue light spectrum activates calcium ion transport to the sites of calcification which obviously will increase calcification. My speculation is that phosphate is necessary to form maybe the organic matrix or something else necessary to provide the "sites of calcification" and in this way the substrate of calcification. With too much calcium ion transport and little phosphate skeletons get very massive but with little (longitudinal) growth. Phosphate according to scientific literature supports (longitudinal) growth and makes skeltons less massive. I think both must be in balance.

 

[jda]

IMO, higher residual no3 and po4 act as cellular disruptors to the host which slows down growth a bit since most LED lights do not have far-red and IR to help move energy between PSII and PSI. This is a balancing act too.

In any case, there is little doubt that corals getting spectrum from 350-850nm can take many times the light of 400-700nm light sources and do not suffer from NSW level residual no3 or po4, or higher ones.

 

[hunterallen40]

I am not sure what you mean. The blue light spectrum activates calcium ion transport to the sites of calcification which obviously will increase calcification. My speculation is that phosphate is necessary to form maybe the organic matrix or something else necessary to provide the "sites of calcification" and in this way the substrate of calcification. With too much calcium ion transport and little phosphate skeletons get very massive but with little (longitudinal) growth. Phosphate according to scientific literature supports (longitudinal) growth and makes skeltons less massive. I think both must be in balance.

@Hans-Werner this is exactly what I was wanting you to expand on. Thanks!

 

[Pod_01]

The first kind of dissolved phosphate they will use is orthophosphate because it is easiest to use. The use of polyphosphates and organic phosphates requires some biochemical work, the excretion of alkaline phosphatase and exopolyphosphatase enzyms.

This part here clarifies the concept for me. For some reason I had the wrong idea that orthophosphate was last to be used or least preferred.
Thank you, now I have it straightened out and I made note for future.

Now in my spare time I need to read up on coral holobiont, Nucleotide etc…

Should keep me busy for some time.

 

[jda]

There are studies and scholarly articles that indicate that hosts will take in poly/meta and organically bound phosphates first. Poly/meta can be stored for later use and the hosts cannot make them, but they can always split them up into ortho. The other organic things bound to phosphate can be used to scrub or remove unwanted things from the host - like it does a phosphate for bad-thing swap and then ejects the organic. Some of these articles are in other languages and I read some of them by going down a rabbit hole of something that Lasse posted. Translate works pretty well, but take all of this with a grain of salt.

The important thing to know is that the kind that you can test for is not all that is in the tank and that poly/meta phosphates, likely only from fish waste in our tanks, can help the coral with a buffer of phosphorous if you have it available.

 

[Reefahholic]

There are studies and scholarly articles that indicate that hosts will take in poly/meta and organically bound phosphates first.

Can you link one up so I can read it. I love the topic of Phosphorus/Phosphate.

 

[Reefahholic]

The important thing to know is that the kind that you can test for is not all that is in the tank and that poly/meta phosphates, likely only from fish waste in our tanks, can help the coral with a buffer of phosphorous if you have it available.

When I was staring at my tank yesterday, I started to think how we could get an organic phosphorus source as good as fish poop. I’d love to have a bag of that where I could dose about 1/8 tsp every night. Too bad we don’t having anything close to that.

 

[Hans-Werner]

When I was staring at my tank yesterday, I started to think how we could get an organic phosphorus source as good as fish poop. I’d love to have a bag of that where I could dose about 1/8 tsp every night. Too bad we don’t having anything close to that.

It is all but sure that fish poop is a good source for organic phosphorus. Although fish poop is mostly organic maybe the phosphate in the fish poop is not. Fish bones, fish scales and crustacean shells contain mainly inorganic phosphate as apatite and other forms of calcium phosphate.

 

[hunterallen40]

As much as I do love the phosphate talk, I want to mention I got my ICP back.

My barium level is 5.87 ppb in the frag tank. Everything seems quite happy, so I'm going to continue with the experiment.

I'm correcting all elements per moonshiner standards, with the exception of barium. Only really unexpected thing that showed up on my ICP was a good amount of zinc in the water, which I think came from me being lazy about changing out the DI resin in my basement RODI system.

@Reefahholic I will keep you posted!

 

[Reefahholic]

As much as I do love the phosphate talk, I want to mention I got my ICP back.

My barium level is 5.87 ppb in the frag tank. Everything seems quite happy, so I'm going to continue with the experiment.

I'm correcting all elements per moonshiner standards, with the exception of barium. Only really unexpected thing that showed up on my ICP was a good amount of zinc in the water, which I think came from me being lazy about changing out the DI resin in my basement RODI system.

@Reefahholic I will keep you posted!

Well, it’s about to get really fun. Did you see the new MS calculator?

 

[Reefahholic]

It is all but sure that fish poop is a good source for organic phosphorus. Although fish poop is mostly organic maybe the phosphate in the fish poop is not. Fish bones, fish scales and crustacean shells contain mainly inorganic phosphate as apatite and other forms of calcium phosphate.

Do you have an email? PM? I want to send you something highlighting the importance of Fe, Mn, Co, Zn, Cu, V, Ni, Mo…

Can’t post it publicly.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Do you have an email? PM? I want to send you something highlighting the importance of Fe, Mn, Co, Zn, Cu, V, Ni, Mo…

Can’t post it publicly.

You have a message in your inbox. Thank you!

 

[jda]

Inorganic phosphate is excreted through the gills of fish as urine. Feces has both, but the inorganic appears to be a dwarf to the level in urine This can be hard to search for since people use meta, poly, metaphosphate, polyphosphate, complex phosphate, compounded phosphate, etc. depending on language barriers. If people say phosphate, they usually mean total, but not always. Some say singular phosphate, or the like if they do not use the word ortho. In any case, it all breaks down eventually to ortho. On accident, I had an experiment go kinda bad and learned that tri poly polyphosphate eventually all turned into ortho in about three days in full strength fresh salt mix, or it maxed out - ortho numbers did not climb anymore after three days.

A really smart guy who has his name on this forum posted this once in a thread about sand beds being phosphate sinks (they are not, by the way). In any case, the stuff about urine phosphate dominating is the key for this discussion...

I am, as it happens, an expert on phosphate metabolism. I've studied it for more than 20 years, and have invented products that sell more than a billion dollars worth each year correcting hyperphosphatemia in people.

There is a flow chart in this link which shows the relative excretion of phosphate in urine (which is almost totally inorganic phosphate) and in feces (which is a combination of organic and inorganic phosphate).

https://www.inkling.com/read/medica...-2nd/chapter-52/calcium-and-phosphate-balance

The inorganic phosphate in urine excretion dominates, even if you ignore all of the inorganic phosphate in the feces. Then you seem to assume that all of that feces ends up in the substrate, which is utterly untrue. Other macroscopic creatures eat it, sometimes over and over. I had a kole tang that loved to eat my yellow tangs feces as fast as it came out. That drops the original phosphate ending up in feces by another factor of, say, based on the data above, three. Each cycle drops it significantly.

At the end of the day, yes, there obviously is phosphate making it to the substrate (as I've agreed along), but it is not the dominant player in phosphate balance in a reef tank.

 

[hunterallen40]

Do you have an email? PM? I want to send you something highlighting the importance of Fe, Mn, Co, Zn, Cu, V, Ni, Mo…

Can’t post it publicly.

Could I also get a copy please?

 

[Borat]

How many of which elements
do you suspect are being incorporated into aragonite by random precipitation? If it’s incorporation, that should lead to “saturation.” An infinite regress of elements isn’t possible. Whatever goes in will eventually leach out “if it’s excessive” which in this case it is. I’d agree if it’s being incorporated into the aragonite, becomes saturated, and then leaches out. The corals would still be utilizing it the same as leaching phosphate from dry rock or sand. Remember, some of these trace element programs/methods have been going for 5-10 years now, and nobody is seeing problems with leaching elements or instability. If elements are leaching, the corals and microorganisms must be using it, otherwise there would be buildup. So I would agree with you if that could be what’s happening here. Nothing else really makes much sense. You can’t dose 50 bottles of barium for 5 years and not have some buildup if nothing is using it. That’s just illogical to me. Just like in my current tank…the dry rock absorbed the PO4 like a sponge for 1 full year! I never thought it was going to stop, but it finally hit a saturation point, started to stabilize, and then leached back out a little until it stabilized again. The same should hold true for any element. Nothing can be added forever into 4 glass panels unless it’s being used. I see the results in biomass, and that is why the system continues to use more.

You probably dont fully understand that certain chemical reactions result in stable compounds that wont "leach" (ever), so comparing your phosphates saturation in rocks with trace elements is like saying that you saw a yellow cow and therefore every mammal is yellow..

 

[Reefahholic]

You probably dont fully understand that certain chemical reactions result in stable compounds that wont "leach" (ever)

Can you link some literature up so that I can read about that specifically.

 

[Reefahholic]

Element talk with an Australian tank on Moonshine. Very interesting setup this guy has in the garage:

 

[Reefahholic]

You probably dont fully understand that certain chemical reactions result in stable compounds that wont "leach" (ever), so comparing your phosphates saturation in rocks with trace elements is like saying that you saw a yellow cow and therefore every mammal is yellow..

Maybe you can educate me with some good literature the same as you’ve educated all of us here in the USA on how to build a LED light. Haha. Show me some nice coral pics, and I may listen closely.