Elements with No Known Biological Role

[Hans-Werner]

Super interesting article
Looks like a pretty large variation in both macro and trace elements. Also interesting that the zoox don't follow the same trend.

Indeed an interesting article. A similar investigation was already availabe which also analysed the skeletons. The only conclusion I can draw is that corals and zooxanthellae seem P-limited which is reflected by wide N : P ratios.

Unfortunately there is no connection between photophysiology and element ratios in the article. It would have been interesting if nutrient ratios influence photophysiology of individuals.

The practical use of the article is a bit limited because it is lacking skeletal analysis. Skeletons seem to reflect water concentrations better than tissue or symbionts. Nutrient uptake of symbionts and tissue is more regulated and possibly more influenced by feeding of the coral polyps.

Also if elements are just trapped in skeletons "by accident" they take up by far the highest proportion of metals and likely also of phosphate from the water, and it seems this process cannot be avoided.

 

[Reefahholic]

Also if elements are just trapped in skeletons "by accident" they take up by far the highest proportion of metals and likely also of phosphate from the water, and it seems this process cannot be avoided.

How much do you think can be trapped or
absorbed by the skeleton until there is a saturation point or equilibrium that occurs, and do you think this affects coral growth or color at higher levels? Does this occur form high levels of metals in the water column?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How much do you think can be trapped or
absorbed by the skeleton until there is a saturation point or equilibrium that occurs, and do you think this affects coral growth or color at higher levels? Does this occur form high levels of metals in the water column?

Noncalcium noncarbonate ions get largely incorporated as the skeleton is deposited. It is mostly not after the fact binding, although that also happens to a small extent. The higher the level of any ion, the more is incorporated.

 

[Reefahholic]

Noncalcium noncarbonate ions get largely incorporated as the skeleton is deposited. It is mostly not after the fact binding, although that also happens to a small extent. The higher the level of any ion, the more is incorporated.

I’m guessing only if the value is very high, like abnormally high, this could or might occur? Would this be species specific or all corals in that environment?

Does this happen at NSW levels?

 

[Reefahholic]

Indeed an interesting article. A similar investigation was already availabe which also analysed the skeletons.

Did you see Sanjay’s entire article:

The Reef Builders’ Big ICP Test Review, by Sanjay Joshi | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

Initially introduced to the hobby market by Triton, ICP tests have been around for several years now and have become a staple in the hobby. The allure of these tests has been the relatively cheap…

reefbuilders.com

Also this was 2019. How would you order these in 2023, and would you change any values?

 

[Reefahholic]

Very interesting. Turns out ratios are important. Sorry about the N|P below…if I didn’t put the slash it would look like this ———> N.



The N|P and C|P ratio in the marine environment can indicate whether N or P availability is limiting photosynthetic primary production (Godinot et al. 2011; Rosset et al. 2017), as they are essential nutrients for algal symbiont physiological functioning (Wiedenmann et al. 2013; D'Angelo and Wiedenmann 2014). High N|P and C|P ratios are consistent with P limitation, whilst low N|P and C|P ratios are consistent with N limitation (Godinot et al. 2011). We observed consistently high C|P and high or equal N|P for the algal symbiont compared to host fractions suggesting P limitation for the symbionts, with extent variable between taxa.

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This pretty much destroys the argument that trace elements don’t play significant role’s.


Our findings demonstrate that both macronutrients and trace elements were significant contributors in resolving host and algal elementomes.

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This is exactly why I carbon dose. I want the bacteria to consume the trace metals in the water column (that I dose daily btw), and feed the corals along with phosphorus and nitrogen. The only thing that has slowed my growth a little recently is because I increased the PO4 level to 0.3-0.4 to send the Dino’s back to Hell. The higher PO4 definitely helps inhibit or directly supports their competitor’s. Not sure which it’s doing, I just know it works as long as all the organics are being limited. It will not work when the reefer is dumping tons of feed, aminos, vitamins, etc. into the system, and the water column is too rich. I’m only speaking about Ostreopsis specifically. Since they’re basically gone now, I’ll be able to go back down to 0.1-0.15 ppm. I know when the corals are growing well, because they will all have a white ring around the base and burning algae off the rocks. Plus the growth tips are more defined. Lights are already on their way back up to peak intensity, and I’m currently letting the PO4 slowly fall back to target. Then it’s game time again. I’m just waiting on @90’s reefer to send me that Surf N Turf stag.



As the coral host regulates algal symbiont access to elements that are bioavailable within the external environment or obtained by host heterotrophic feeding, greater concentrations of metals in the symbionts suggest their ability to more rapidly separate and absorb metals compared to their host, thus restricting metal levels in host tissues.

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It do find it interesting that some corals may be utilizing tiny amounts of these nonessential elements like Lead & Cadmium (pollutants). Tin I consider somewhat essential, but it seems that we all have too much. I’d assume there is very limited consumption with Cd & Pb. Might be beneficial, who knows.



Pb, Sn and Cd bioaccumulate and hence their presence at outer reef GBR sites warrants further targeted investigation that is beyond the scope of this study. It also demonstrates that efforts to understand the BN of corals need to consider the role non-essential elements (i.e. elements that do not significantly contribute to meeting nutritional demands) play in shaping corals’ biogeochemical space

 

[Pod_01]

I increased the PO4 level to 0.3-0.4 to send the Dino’s back to Hell.

Out of curiosity do you know what triggered your Dino’s?
Reason I ask is, if you followed the Moonshiners method I don’t believe you should have had Dino’s outbreak, even if your NO3/PO4 bottoms out.

Last time I had Dino’s about 3+ years ago, after ICP I discovered I was low on few key trace elements that likely creat the ideal conditions for Dino’s. With Dino’s I do follow the FM/ Claude Schuhmacher recommendation on what causes the outbreak.
Since my last outbreak I had no issue but I find the elevated P/PO4 observation interesting and perhaps elevated levels can prevent the outbreak. Pure speculation though.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m guessing only if the value is very high, like abnormally high, this could or might occur? Would this be species specific or all corals in that environment?

Does this happen at NSW levels?

It happens at all concentrations, above or below NSW levels, and the amount incorporated if mist ions is roughly proportional to the concentration in the water, all other things being equal.

 

[Reefahholic]

Out of curiosity do you know what triggered your Dino’s?

They were there in the beginning. The dry rock was the cause. Either my long cure time with bacteria messed up the rock or it was treated with something. It was binding phosphate for 1 year.

 

[Reefahholic]

It happens at all concentrations, above or below NSW levels, and the amount incorporated if mist ions is roughly proportional to the concentration in the water, all other things being equal.

Good to know!

I wish I could show you this pic/diagram that is copyrighted, but I can’t post it publicly. If you send me your email I’ll send it.

It has to do with the numerous biochemical pathways and molecular processes where trace metals are necessary for fundamental cell function and cellular responses to physiological stress. Primarily with Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, Ni, Mo, V, & Co.

 

[Pod_01]

They were there in the beginning. The dry rock was the cause. Either my long cure time with bacteria messed up the rock or it was treated with something. It was binding phosphate for 1 year.

I believe dry rock binds other things as well.

I read this recently and it is interesting idea:

The amino part.

These days I keep extra plugs and pieces of stones in sump so if I need them they are populated and seasoned. So far it seems to work, they have not turned into green fuzz balls.

 

[Reefahholic]

I believe dry rock binds other things as well.

I read this recently and it is interesting idea:

The amino part.

These days I keep extra plugs and pieces of stones in sump so if I need them they are populated and seasoned. So far it seems to work, they have not turned into green fuzz balls.

Mine were like a literal phosphate sponge for a full year. Never seen anything like it, and I’ve had at least 6 other dry rock systems with the same rock.

 

[Mattiejay6]

such a great discussion.. I cannot really contribute.. but loved reading through it so far.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Sorry, I had overlooked the link to the written article of Sanjay Joshi, very interesting. Thank you for pointing to it again.

Also this was 2019. How would you order these in 2023, and would you change any values?

I wouldn't change the order. In 1) and 2) I wouldn't stress priority very much. The importance, supplementation and target values for alkalinity are commonly known. While I see phosphate concentrations between 0.1 and 0.2 ppm as similar important it is still much less accepted. I would recommend the lower end of my recommendation for tanks that have reached a certain degree of crowding and where the corals should grow steadily but slowly. The higher end is for faster coral growth.

What I see also as quite new is the connection between nutrients and lighting. In my experience a certain phosphate level is especially important for corals under led lighting. Most white and blue LEDs have a strong peak at 450 nm which was found to activate calcium ion transport in corals. Coincidentally this is the same wavelength that gets lost first in T5 and metal halide lighting. I think corals react with increased calcium ion transport to LED lighting. Phosphate seems to be necessary to balance this somehow, I think by modifying crystallization and growth of calcium carbonate crystals. 450 nm blue light and phosphate seem to work antagonistic and must be in balance.

These are the reasons why I put phosphate at place 1), to stress its importance.

 

[biecacka]

@Reefahholic, do you have great colors and growth with moonshiners? I have good growth (but I also use kalk) but my colors are not good at all. I have 2 full size Orpheks v4 panels on my tank. Looking to add some supplementary bars and see if that helps.

corey

 

[Pod_01]

While I see phosphate concentrations between 0.1 and 0.2 ppm as similar important it is still much less accepted.

Hans I have silly question. Here are you referring to Orthophosphate PO4 (the one we can measure with test kit)?
My head is still spinning from different forms of N and different forms of P.

The second question/clarification I am curious about. The LED light and the phosphate level. Is this referring to the measurable PO4 or other form of P?
Based on the ICP total test below what P is critical:

My corals were not looking good and my PO4 titration test and Hanna test told me I was low. The lab confirmed that I was low on Ortho-Phosphate PO4 as well but there seems to be other P. I increased the Ortho PO4 and things are looking better.

If I keep this up I will become part time reef tank biologist/ chemist lol.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hans I have silly question. Here are you referring to Orthophosphate PO4 (the one we can measure with test kit)?
My head is still spinning from different forms of N and different forms of P.

The second question/clarification I am curious about. The LED light and the phosphate level. Is this referring to the measurable PO4 or other form of P?
Based on the ICP total test below what P is critical:

My corals were not looking good and my PO4 titration test and Hanna test told me I was low. The lab confirmed that I was low on Ortho-Phosphate PO4 as well but there seems to be other P. I increased the Ortho PO4 and things are looking better.

If I keep this up I will become part time reef tank biologist/ chemist lol.

Without knowing what the organic phosphate comprised, it will be impossible for anyone to answer. it might be whole bacteria and viruses, test error, or dissolved molecules such as proteins, DNA, phospholipids, etc.

 

[hunterallen40]

What I see also as quite new is the connection between nutrients and lighting. In my experience a certain phosphate level is especially important for corals under led lighting. Most white and blue LEDs have a strong peak at 450 nm which was found to activate calcium ion transport in corals. Coincidentally this is the same wavelength that gets lost first in T5 and metal halide lighting. I think corals react with increased calcium ion transport to LED lighting. Phosphate seems to be necessary to balance this somehow, I think by modifying crystallization and growth of calcium carbonate crystals. 450 nm blue light and phosphate seem to work antagonistic and must be in balance.

Anecdotally, I just swapped out my T5's for some radion G5s (I run 10000k metal hallide for most of the day)... BIG drop in phosphate. I have found best success with phosphate between 0.1 and 0.2 (and have gone far higher than that without issues).

@Hans-Werner I'm a big believer in phosphates, and will read that literature you linked later today, but could I ask you to expand a bit further as to where you think that balance may be?

 

[Reefahholic]

Sorry, I had overlooked the link to the written article of Sanjay Joshi, very interesting. Thank you for pointing to it again.


I wouldn't change the order. In 1) and 2) I wouldn't stress priority very much. The importance, supplementation and target values for alkalinity are commonly known. While I see phosphate concentrations between 0.1 and 0.2 ppm as similar important it is still much less accepted. I would recommend the lower end of my recommendation for tanks that have reached a certain degree of crowding and where the corals should grow steadily but slowly. The higher end is for faster coral growth.

What I see also as quite new is the connection between nutrients and lighting. In my experience a certain phosphate level is especially important for corals under led lighting. Most white and blue LEDs have a strong peak at 450 nm which was found to activate calcium ion transport in corals. Coincidentally this is the same wavelength that gets lost first in T5 and metal halide lighting. I think corals react with increased calcium ion transport to LED lighting. Phosphate seems to be necessary to balance this somehow, I think by modifying crystallization and growth of calcium carbonate crystals. 450 nm blue light and phosphate seem to work antagonistic and must be in balance.

These are the reasons why I put phosphate at place 1), to stress its importance.

I think phosphate is extremely important also. Thx for sharing that.

 

[Reefahholic]

@Reefahholic, do you have great colors and growth with moonshiners? I have good growth (but I also use kalk) but my colors are not good at all. I have 2 full size Orpheks v4 panels on my tank. Looking to add some supplementary bars and see if that helps.

corey

When your tank takes off, the corals will outgrow their resources w/o larger water changes (which we don’t do), so IMO it’s very important to send ICP-MS so that you can dial in the trace metals like Fe, Mn, Co, Cr, Cu, V, Ni, Zn….

Before I dialed those elements in…the tank was ok “UNTIL” it took off. After that my colors ran into the ground. So if you’re not doing water changes, it’s a must IMO to dial those elements in. I saw a marked difference. I would not lie. My Strawberry Shortcake got super pale. This maybe what is happening in your system, and why I constantly encourage ICP-MS. I want everybody to see that good color and growth.