Embracing a new concept...and freeing our minds from preconception. Not easy.

[Keithcorals]

I'm in
I would love to have my water tested and sorry if this has been asked but
When can I get started?
Is there going to be a way to sign up for monthly/regular testing?
What is the cost per test?
Thanks!!!

 

[uniquecorals]

Very interesting for sure. The DSR method caught my attention several months back and find this on a similar level as mentioned. My laymen question is in regard to the ionic balance. I didn't see this addressed. We all know that nutrients are easily removed via skimming, chemical filtration and refugiums. Elements can be dosed back in. No water changes needed to accomplish those two. It is my understanding that what can only be corrected VIA water changes is the shift in ion charges. Over time through the biological processes positively charged ions shigt to negitive and vice versa. There is a need to correct that for sysyem stability and water changes are the omly way. I would have to dig though the books to find the reference but I think it is Spung's volume three. Again I'm not an expert and may have misunderstood this. If I did please correct me. If I did not, how does this system account for this shift

Again, awesome questions...We need to get some answers. I could make some hypothesis, but I'll get a better answer from the source. If any Triton users from Europe or The UK have the answer, please do chime in!

 

[uniquecorals]

I'm in
I would love to have my water tested and sorry if this has been asked but
When can I get started?
Is there going to be a way to sign up for monthly/regular testing?
What is the cost per test?
Thanks!!!

We are still finalizing the details..We anticipate early to mid-October...and pricing is still not set...We will create a multiple test pricing, as well. We have not really contemplated a "monthly" service, however. All these details will be announced as soon as we have them. There is a lot of interest, but we want to have everything in place and a better information set before we debut a product..Better for everyone!

 

[DaniSLOelle]

I am very intrigued. Though I am pretty new to the hobby, I am a scientist and have been "growing and breeding animals" for 13 years. In human In Vitro Fertilization, we are able to support embryos outside of the human body. Believe me that it's the consistency and the exact components in the culture conditions that matters. Seems like this is way overdue in reef keeping. I was love to start buying less water! Looking forward to your updates, thank you!

 

[Eienna]

You definitely have a point on the water shortage front.

 

[heathd.hd]

This will b pro!

 

[Zippy]

Scott or maybe Randy can answer this. If I sample my water to be tested in Germany, will transit time of said water affect results? There will be some living organisms in the sample that will die...or not, but will reshuffle the arrangement of some molecules. No? Yes? This company is testing for elements....does the presentation of said element ( in molecule A vs molecule B) affect their means to detect it?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Reshuffling of the molecules does not matter, as long as it all stays suspended in the water.

The first stage in an ICP is to blast it so incredibly hot (the "plasma" part of Inductively Coupled Plasma) that every molecule comes apart into individual atoms, with no "memory" of what molecule they were in before burning.

So, that brings up the point that just because you read X ppb of element Z, does not mean that it was actually available in solution. It may have all been inside of bacteria (unless they filter it) or attached to organic molecules, or in colloidal (very small) solid particles.

 

[Zippy]

Reshuffling of the molecules does not matter, as long as it all stays suspended in the water.

The first stage in an ICP is to blast it so incredibly hot (the "plasma" part of Inductively Coupled Plasma) that every molecule comes apart into individual atoms, with no "memory" of what molecule they were in before burning.

So, that brings up the point that just because you read X ppb of element Z, does not mean that it was actually available in solution. It may have all been inside of bacteria (unless they filter it) or attached to organic molecules, or in colloidal (very small) solid particles.

Thanks for the explanation Randy. I also see your point, sort of like nutritional listings for foods. They fail to mention the "bioavailability"....what the organism extracts going from one orifice to the other.

 

[Squamosa]

Hi Scott

Another very well written article with good arguments put forward.

I practice the DSR method of reef keeping and have not done a water change in 3 months and never intend to do another!!

My results are to say the least, outstanding and I have really seen positive results from correcting the values of those elements not normally tested for e.g. strontium.

If you are going to Germany, why don't you take a detour and look up GlennF (the originator of DSR) who lives in Rotterdam. His tank has not had a water change in years.

Cheers,
Tony

 

[reefwiser]

Tony GlennF went to The Triton headquaters to meet Ehsan both methods are going for the same thing. Scott I am glad you are bringing this to the US. An I remember the uproar that the Live rock method caused when it was introduced. We must move forward in the hobby and question otherwise we will continue making the same mistakes.
I am sitting up a DSR tank this year and might just send water for testing check's

 

[Fishbone]

ICP testing has already improved my reef, for the last year and half my reef has been off. My parameters are rock stable and I just couldn't figure out why all my corals were doing so poorly given my past success. I attend MACNA and decided to bring out a sample of my water for Triton to test. Everything looked pretty good, but chloride was through the roof. They told me my salinity was likely really high, so I bought some reference solution and tested my refractometer and it was WAY off. Been lowering my salinity over the last couple weeks and my tank is making a complete turn around before my eyes. I know I could have done a better job on the front end making sure all my tests were accurate, but you don't know what you don't know and there are a million variables to try and figure out. Been keeping reefs for 20 years and to my knowledge never had a problem with salinity before. If you were able to establish a monthly service for a few hundred bucks a year I would definitely sign up.

 

[kidtango]

Keep on at it, Scott. I am very excited to see that you are trying to push for a more efficient, eco-friendly, and better way of reefing. I think this is the reason why I love this hobby more than any other. I love how we always seek for improvement within our own systems and within the reefing community as a whole. I'll be the first to contact you once you have new system online! Good luck and keep on pushing for a better way to keep our reefs happy and thriving!

 

[Mattiejay6]

I am absolutely loving this discussion! This has definitely got me thinking especially with the chime in from chemists and scientists we have on the forum. The one thing I am curious about and would like to see is a table of results from different tanks, different users, a description or profile of the tank, components etc.. I feel that not only is the water testing extremely beneficial, but also seeing what other users are doing and using also help. I kind of feel if some user make this information public, or vendors etc this would help people wrap the minds around this concept. Plus it is just plain interesting to see all the comparisons even with just the salt.

 

[Nano sapiens]

^^ Agreed.

I see quite a bit of discussion about finding what is 'off' in tanks that are having challenges, but equally interesting would be to have long term, highly successful tanks tested and see how the parameters compare to whatever element standards Triton is using.

 

[Battlecorals]

Just curious and sorry if I missed it somewhere in this thread but would they be able to test for stuff that should not be in the water as well. Simply put.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am absolutely loving this discussion! This has definitely got me thinking especially with the chime in from chemists and scientists we have on the forum. The one thing I am curious about and would like to see is a table of results from different tanks, different users, a description or profile of the tank, components etc.. I feel that not only is the water testing extremely beneficial, but also seeing what other users are doing and using also help. I kind of feel if some user make this information public, or vendors etc this would help people wrap the minds around this concept. Plus it is just plain interesting to see all the comparisons even with just the salt.

I agree that would be a good next step.

NSW is a good goal, but there's no reason to think it "optimal" for things like trace elements that may become limiting to growth in an aquarium, or may be excessively high in the ocean and organisms are constantly struggling to remove them. A comparison of a lot of top quality tanks with no apparent problems would be interesting.

 

[uniquecorals]

Excellent feedback and points by all...We are going to really jump into this and get as much factual and practical information as we can, so that we can all make our own decisions about what would work best for our own systems. As Mattiejay points out, we need to share our successes, failures, and processes while playing with Triton, and we will. We have a huge list of questions to get clarification on. I think there are some really interesting possibilities here, and a lot of great discussion on regarding pros and cons. We're going to have Ehsan come on this forum and chime in on the conversation- he's eager to answer questions and share what has worked for him, which is really cool. You'll also find that he's a straight shooter, and will tell you if he thinks something doesn't work, or didn't work for him.

Different concepts need to be explained and discussed in much more detail for the understanding of everyone, so I appreciate that we are giving this the thought and consideration it deserves. Constructive criticism and comments are always welcome. Only after we have all of the facts and some practical experiences under our belts can we really make the call on this. It's going to be a neat ride.

Adam, the Triton test will pick up levels of trace elements that are way off from NSW levels, either too low or too high, based on their model. It will pick up stuff like copper (taking into account the detection limits as previously pointed out by Randy), which can as we know be problematic at certain levels, as well as lesser-known trace elements like Vanadium, which can also be problematic if too high. Again, the point of Triton's "method" is not to get people to obsess over keeping their tanks at precise levels for every parameter. It's to keep the range tighter and lower the number of variables in a reef. I think that's where a lot of the misconceptions come into play (reefers asserting that the "method" espoused is too complicated, etc.), and hopefully, with more information we can empower our fellow reefers and secure feedback from them with their efforts.

I will have a lot more clarification about many things after next week- practical stuff like maintaining carbonate hardness, etc., etc. We will also endeavor to provide real-world-experience-based information, videos, etc. on our adventures with this stuff, and I would encourage those who try out Triton's methods to do the same.

Fishbone, as we refine prices for testing and other things, we'll be sure to keep you posted. It's actually a very exciting thing to help bring something new to the US reefing community, and it requires a lot of effort, honesty and communications on our part, which we will provide for sure!

Thanks,

Scott

 

[uniquecorals]

I agree that would be a good next step.

NSW is a good goal, but there's no reason to think it "optimal" for things like trace elements that may become limiting to growth in an aquarium, or may be excessively high in the ocean and organisms are constantly struggling to remove them. A comparison of a lot of top quality tanks with no apparent problems would be interesting.

YES! Randy, that is exactly the kind of information that would be really cool to know...I think that targeting a close proximation of NSW levels may be a start, and with the goal of stability in mind, it would be really cool to see what is working for successful reefers who work with the Triton method. I just would hate for people to be fixated on exact numbers in a closed system, and I think that an admirable goal is trying to keep your tank at or near the parameters it is at when it's just thriving. getting a "snapshot" of crazy successful reef tanks as they are at their peak would be a really cool basis for an informal study...Perhaps there is commonality in some parameters of successful tanks?

I think that opening our eyes to the wonders of reef chemistry will just add another dimension of education and enjoyment to this cool hobby. How we use the information to improve our aquariums is a very exciting topic.

Thanks,

Scott

 

[Battlecorals]

Adam, the Triton test will pick up levels of trace elements that are way off from NSW levels, either too low or too high, based on their model. It will pick up stuff like copper (taking into account the detection limits as previously pointed out by Randy), which can as we know be problematic at certain levels, as well as lesser-known trace elements like Vanadium, which can also be problematic if too high. Again, the point of Triton's "method" is not to get people to obsess over keeping their tanks at precise levels for every parameter. It's to keep the range tighter and lower the number of variables in a reef. I think that's where a lot of the misconceptions come into play (reefers asserting that the "method" espoused is too complicated, etc.), and hopefully, with more information we can empower our fellow reefers and secure feedback from them with their efforts.



Scott

definitely looking forward to seeing how this all goes. thanks for responding. So the test is primarily just to measure levels of trace elements then? Here's where i was coming from with my question. i have always been a little paranoid about old dust, metal from my ducts that are rusty lol, pollen or any tiny foreign particles in the air polluting my water. Am I correct in saying that anything outside of whats in NSW would not be tested for, discovered and/or measured? with this test.

again just curious. I have multiple systems and usually there is at least some thing i can't pinpoint that is wrong with one of them at any point. I am extremely curious to see how otherwise identical systems may differ on this level and to what extent they do in relation to overall visible health at any given time. I like the idea of being able to have some reference to gauge how my tanks look in relation to one another if that makes sense. not sure i am really explaining it very well.

.