Excess Lanthanum

[kzp]

An interesting thought. Yesterday I moved over my dosing tube to dose into the body of the skimmer. I brought the dosing line in through the lid and then used a section of rigid tubing to drop the outlet down the neck into the skimmer body.

Any word yet on your Lanthanum levels and phosphate levels since dosing into the skimmer neck? I dose Phosphate RX (also lanthanum based) into my Clarisea roller filter. My thought is that even with filtering down to 50 mcg (or 25 mcg in the case of the Clarisea), the fleece is continually partially clogged with waste, so we may actually be filtering out more of the Lanthanum than we would assume to be doing with our 25-50 mcg fleece filtering ratings. Furthermore, are we even sure that Lanthanum is harmful to our corals? I'm dosing a very small amount of Lanthanum/day via a dosing pump, which is working very well for me in keeping down my phosphates. My lanthanum level as per ICP (literally run today) was .024 PPM, which is slightly higher than "Fiji" water levels (.007 ppm). Should I be worried?

 

[csb123]

I use LaCl daily, and only one Triton test showed an excess. It’s my opinion that the test got some Lanathum phosphate precipitate in it. The ICP process involves superheating the sample until the elements dissociate. So, I think, unless you dosed it immediately before taking the sample, there was no excess reactive Lanathum ion.

As to preventing cloudiness when dosing, just drip it in slowly. Mechanical filtration will help, and any leftovers end up as detritus. I drip mine into the skimmer.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

19 Jan - PO4 0.03
27 Jan - Moved dosing tube into skimmer, added diatom filter to sump (to catch stray precipitate)
01 Feb - PO4 0.04, cut LaCl dose by 1/3, 40% water change
06 Feb - PO4 0.05, turned off LaCl dose & introduced Chaeto to system
08 Feb - PO4 0.04, 40 % water change

I am going to test PO4 again today and perform a third 40% water change on Saturday, and then will send in another ICP test.

In terms of a little more detail as to issues I was having - SPS both burned at tips (colonies) and tissue peeling at base/RTN (frags). I lost all copepods & amphipods (gammarus shrimp), anemone crab, hermits (I had ~250). Soft corals (mushrooms, yellow polyps) and anemones shrunk in size. Chaeto died. I thought I had lost my micro brittle star population, but now that I have performed some water changes I am beginning to see their legs sticking back out of the LR again. I cant say for sure the La was the issue, but it was the only thing that stood out on the ICP test. Things seem to be looking better after the two 40% water changes, I can just barely see the SPS with burned tips beginning to regrow at those areas, and the softies and anemones are opening back up.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

My updated triton test came back with 6.8 ug/L which almost perfectly aligns with the calculated expected value after 3 40% water changes and a starting value of 31 ug/L. So, I trust the reading, and to me it is confirmed that I am actually dealing with free La in the water as opposed to precipitate (since I stopped dosing La several weeks prior to sending this sample in, and have been running a diatom filter since then).

6.8 ug/L still registers as a high value, so I will continue with regular smaller water changes to slowly finish bringing the level down. The tank has already improved dramatically - coral color and tissue texture has returned, corals are regrowing over dead areas, and alkalinity uptake has jumped. I introduced some Chaeto maybe 2 weeks ago and it has probably quadrupled in size since then, and PO4 levels remain in my typical range. I am now working on re establishing microbial and pod diversity as well as restocking my CUC.

 

[dankaqua]

It sounds like proof positive that there was a Lanthanum buildup in your system and that was harming your reef's inhabitants. Glad that water changes and ending the LaCl dosing fixed the problem.

Also great to hear that your phosphate levels are stable (and low) by growing Chaeto. I recall that your reason to use LaCl was to be able to accurately control phosphate levels (where using GFO would lead to a big drop and slow rise when the media was changed out). Since Chaeto is a growing/photosynthesizing/nutrient uptake organism, it should naturally react to changes in available nutrients, and you can "dial in" nutrient uptake with photo period and light intensity.

...curious as to whether dosing LaCl into a skimmer mitigates the buildup issue?... maybe there is more to dosing LaCl into skimmer foam than we currently understand?

 

[CoralWealth]

My updated triton test came back with 6.8 ug/L which almost perfectly aligns with the calculated expected value after 3 40% water changes and a starting value of 31 ug/L. So, I trust the reading, and to me it is confirmed that I am actually dealing with free La in the water as opposed to precipitate (since I stopped dosing La several weeks prior to sending this sample in, and have been running a diatom filter since then).

6.8 ug/L still registers as a high value, so I will continue with regular smaller water changes to slowly finish bringing the level down. The tank has already improved dramatically - coral color and tissue texture has returned, corals are regrowing over dead areas, and alkalinity uptake has jumped. I introduced some Chaeto maybe 2 weeks ago and it has probably quadrupled in size since then, and PO4 levels remain in my typical range. I am now working on re establishing microbial and pod diversity as well as restocking my CUC.

how is this now? my Lanthanum tested at 9 and i use phosphate rx

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

Hey all, for anyone still interested... (@dankaqua, @kzp)

I'm approaching the 2 year mark following up on this situation. After stopping the LaCl and introducing Chaeto into the system I was able to keep nitrates and phosphates in line for ~18 months. As usual, at some point a few months ago the chaeto died off and I began having issues controlling nutrients again. I found an old bottle of phosphat-E and hooked it up to a peri pump (had to reference back to this thread to find my dosing) and this time had it dose into the skimmer neck. Within weeks my phosphates were back at acceptable levels. But... after a few months I began to see base recession on some SPS corals. Sent in an ICP test and La levels are elevated again. So to answer the question of dosing into the skimmer neck - does NOT mitigate the issue, at least in my system.

 

[GSnake]

Hey all, for anyone still interested... (@dankaqua, @kzp)

I'm approaching the 2 year mark following up on this situation. After stopping the LaCl and introducing Chaeto into the system I was able to keep nitrates and phosphates in line for ~18 months. As usual, at some point a few months ago the chaeto died off and I began having issues controlling nutrients again. I found an old bottle of phosphat-E and hooked it up to a peri pump (had to reference back to this thread to find my dosing) and this time had it dose into the skimmer neck. Within weeks my phosphates were back at acceptable levels. But... after a few months I began to see base recession on some SPS corals. Sent in an ICP test and La levels are elevated again. So to answer the question of dosing into the skimmer neck - does NOT mitigate the issue, at least in my system.

I've dosed lacl into skimmer neck for months now, 6?. I also got lanthanum on my ICP at around 48ug and am looking into it, how I found this thread. I do not however have recession on my sos, though I feed a lot and use coral foods / aminos / traces too. What have you done since

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've dosed lacl into skimmer neck for months now, 6?. I also got lanthanum on my ICP at around 48ug and am looking into it, how I found this thread. I do not however have recession on my sos, though I feed a lot and use coral foods / aminos / traces too. What have you done since

Do you still have significant phosphate?

 

[GSnake]

I've dosed lacl into skimmer neck for months now, 6?. I also got lanthanum on my ICP at around 48ug and am looking into it, how I found this thread. I do not however have recession on my sos, though I feed a lot and use coral foods / aminos / traces too. What have you done since

Do you still have significant phosphate?

I went from .6 when I started to .1 now, and it's pretty stable at .1 for 2-3 months, I use 3 ml of phosban L to get it to stay here

I haven't made much much of attempt to get it lower cause it doesn't bind effectively at .05 and under right?

 

[Miami Reef]

I went from .6 when I started to .1 now, and it's pretty stable at .1 for 2-3 months, I use 3 ml of phosban L to get it to stay here

I haven't made much much of attempt to get it lower cause it doesn't bind effectively at .05 and under right?

Lanthanum can easily take phosphate down to undetectable levels. However, the lower the phosphate, the higher potential for free lanthanum. It can also precipitate with carbonate (alkalinity), so free forms shouldn’t last indefinitely.

 

[BryanM]

I dose Lanthanum Chloride to manage phosphate. I am having some trouble with corals and a Triton test came back with very high levels of Lanthanum.

I currently dose into my Rollermat, but maybe that is not catching enough precipitate? Or is this different because it’s dissolved? How can I stop this from happening? I am happy with my PO4 management so would like to continue using LaCl but just want to find a way to stop it from ending up dissolved at elevated levels in the water.

And, how can I get rid of the Lanthanum that is currently present? Detox, Cuprisorb, polyfilter?

First, love the name :)

I know gfo isn;t cheap, but I switched due to LC issues. Why not just switch to a different export method?

 

[MBruun]

How come that not all LC binds to phosphate (or carbonate) and precipitate and turn into "free LC" ?
If the inorganic phosphate level are above 0.1 I would expect all LC to react with the phosphate and precipitate. I know it doesn't but why ?
I assume that the LC measured by ICP-MS is free LC that are not precipitated to anything.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How come that not all LC binds to phosphate (or carbonate) and precipitate and turn into "free LC" ?
If the inorganic phosphate level are above 0.1 I would expect all LC to react with the phosphate and precipitate. I know it doesn't but why ?
I assume that the LC measured by ICP-MS is free LC that are not precipitated to anything.

I’m not sure why the op shows lanthanum or if it is accurate, or if accurate, whether it is any concern.

Both lanthanum and phosphate will be present at some level, as they both are in the ocean, but I do not know if any reason for the op to see more than others do.

 

[redacted_]

why not run GFO instead, and what are you PO4 numbers? And you’d need at least a 5-10 micron sock to filter the precipitation out.

+1 I agree with this and going the tried and tested route (but I may be a luddite). I saw you mentioned you had chaeto, but usually a large enough fuge or scrubber be more than enough for nutrient export, as least ime. How much are you feeding?