Excess Lanthanum

[LobsterOfJustice]

I dose Lanthanum Chloride to manage phosphate. I am having some trouble with corals and a Triton test came back with very high levels of Lanthanum.

I currently dose into my Rollermat, but maybe that is not catching enough precipitate? Or is this different because it’s dissolved? How can I stop this from happening? I am happy with my PO4 management so would like to continue using LaCl but just want to find a way to stop it from ending up dissolved at elevated levels in the water.

And, how can I get rid of the Lanthanum that is currently present? Detox, Cuprisorb, polyfilter?

 

[ZoWhat]

....and high levels of Lanthanum does what?

I know inverts and clams have trouble with it but whipdeedo... you just go buy more inverts by the dozen. I'm not a big fan of clams bc they are so delicate. I don't have the time nor money to chase "delicate "

I think these trace amounts of "x" that show up on a ICP report makes everyone Alarmist. thinking the sky is falling and my corals wont grow "as well"... please

I feel managing PO4 is 10x more important than seeing raised lanthanum levels on a ICP reoort

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

I am specifically having trouble with SPS corals dying in a well established system, and performed the triton test as part of my troubleshooting. Trust me, I generally agree with you as far as chasing ICP test numbers, but in this case I do have an actual problem for which I’m first looking for causes, then solutions.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not know if metal binders like metasorb will bind it. Lanthanum acts a lot like calcium and since these products are supposed to bind metals like copper in the present of a big excess of calcium, it may not sufficiently bind the lanthanum. Chelators for lanthanum might need to be different due to its large physical size.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

I do not know if metal binders like metasorb will bind it. Lanthanum acts a lot like calcium and since these products are supposed to bind metals like copper in the present of a big excess of calcium, it may not sufficiently bind the lanthanum. Chelators for lanthanum might need to be different due to its large physical size.

Thanks for the info.

Do you think the presence of dissolved La in my water is indicative of an issue with how I am using it? I am not adequately capturing the precipitate, and for some reason it is ending up dissolved back into the water somehow? Or maybe this is just an expected side effect?

And it sounds like maybe water changes are the best way to lower levels? My usual water change routine slipped towards the end of last year as I had trouble sourcing IO that isn’t caked to a brick since they changed bags. So maybe I had been managing it before and it simply built up when I stopped water changes.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

I dose Lanthanum Chloride to manage phosphate. I am having some trouble with corals and a Triton test came back with very high levels of Lanthanum.

I currently dose into my Rollermat, but maybe that is not catching enough precipitate? Or is this different because it’s dissolved? How can I stop this from happening? I am happy with my PO4 management so would like to continue using LaCl but just want to find a way to stop it from ending up dissolved at elevated levels in the water.

And, how can I get rid of the Lanthanum that is currently present? Detox, Cuprisorb, polyfilter?

I don't think the Rollermat is small enough (micron wise) to catch the particulate that is generated. they usually suggest a 10 micron sock or smaller. I know @Thales is experimenting with dosing a super slow rates directly into a protein skimmer to see if that is an acceptable way of removing the particulate without using a sock/filter.

Your post has reminded me that I should send in a Triton test myself to see if my Lanthanum filter is removing the particulate like I expect it is.

Dennis

 

[motortrendz]

I've always dosed it right into my skimmer through the cover into the foam.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm actually surprised that more folks do not have detectable lanthanum, and I'm not sure why you specifically have it.

 

[Thales]

Rollermat fleece is 50 micron. Where in the system are you dosing Lanthanum?

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

I've always dosed it right into my skimmer through the cover into the foam.

And this works? Seems like it would just end up skimmed out and not get a chance to do it’s job. I was thinking of a way to dose into the skimmer inlet so that it reacted in the body but didn’t come up with anything I liked

Rollermat fleece is 50 micron. Where in the system are you dosing Lanthanum?

I am dosing directly into the “dirty” side of the rollermat. The rollermat then drains into the refugium section of my sump (which is currently empty because all my Chaeto died).

 

[Thales]

I am dosing directly into the “dirty” side of the rollermat. The rollermat then drains into the refugium section of my sump (which is currently empty because all my Chaeto died).

I think it likely a lot would get through that - especially every time the roller advances and is clean.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

I think it likely a lot would get through that - especially every time the roller advances and is clean.

Interesting. I have been doing this for well over a year, probably closer to two, so I wonder why this is just now becoming a problem. Wether it’s because I slipped on my water change schedule, maybe it just took that long to build up, or something else.

Even if I’m not capturing the precipitate, precipitate wouldn’t show up dissolved in water (right?) so is this re-dissolving somewhere else in the system? And re-releasing its phosphate at that time too?

Or, maybe my triton test sample just captured some precipitate and the level is not actually indicative of what’s dissolved in my system water...

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

In case anyone is curious to the actual tested value, or if it means anything to anyone, the measured value is 31 ug/L (target is 0.1 ug/L).

 

[SeaDweller]

When I was researching LaCl use, I don’t think it is known at what levels may be an issue. I know Melev’s Reef uses it throughout the year. I’ve used it last year, and finished the bottle of agent green (have a full bottle of SeaKlear too), but after I got my levels down, I switched to HC GFO and then Rowaphos to maintain PO4.

why not run GFO instead, and what are you PO4 numbers? And you’d need at least a 5-10 micron sock to filter the precipitation out.

 

[Thales]

How much do you dose how often? I dose 30 ml a day (via Apex/DOS) of 30ml Lanth in 3000 ml of distilled water into the neck of the skimmer.

 

[SeaDweller]

How much do you dose how often? I dose 30 ml a day (via Apex/DOS) of 30ml Lanth in 3000 ml of distilled water into the neck of the skimmer.

what's your PO4 at now? Last I remember it was like 1.5+ or something, right?

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

why not run GFO instead, and what are you PO4 numbers? And you’d need at least a 5-10 micron sock to filter the precipitation out.

I used GFO in the past, but found it very hard to maintain precise & consistent low levels of PO4. I have no way of knowing how much media to use or when it is exhausted, and my PO4 levels would drop when new media introduced & rise when media was old. LaCl dosing gives me precise control and I can fine tune my dose to achieve desired level. I can look at my dosing container at a glance to see when I need to refill, and dumping a bottle of Phosphat-E and some RODI into the dosing container is a lot easier than swapping out GFO in a reactor.

How much do you dose how often? I dose 30 ml a day (via Apex/DOS) of 30ml Lanth in 3000 ml of distilled water into the neck of the skimmer.

I'm using Phosphat-E, and diluting 500 mL into 4.5 L of RODI for a 1/10th concentrated solution. My 1.1 mL BRS pump comes on 63 seconds every 20 minutes... which (double check me) means it runs for 75.6 minutes a day which is roughly 83.2 mL per day of this diluted solution. This keeps my PO4 solidly between 0.02 - 0.06 (usually 0.04).

 

[Dennis Cartier]

You might be driving your PO4 too low for your corals and the problems you are seeing are from lack of PO4. You have not been removing the reacted PO4 completely if you have been using a 50 micron filter (Roller-mat) and the 0.02 - 0.06 you are getting on your PO4 test could include bound phosphate that is still in the water column and testable, but unavailable to corals. Switching to a skimmer dosing implementation like Thales would hopefully remove this possibility and if you are over stripping PO4, make it apparent on a test. This could also explain your ICP test, if reacted but bound LaCl was in the sample sent in for testing.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

You might be driving your PO4 too low for your corals and the problems you are seeing are from lack of PO4. You have not been removing the reacted PO4 completely if you have been using a 50 micron filter (Roller-mat) and the 0.02 - 0.06 you are getting on your PO4 test could include bound phosphate that is still in the water column and testable, but unavailable to corals. Switching to a skimmer dosing implementation like Thales would hopefully remove this possibility and if you are over stripping PO4, make it apparent on a test. This could also explain your ICP test, if reacted but bound LaCl was in the sample sent in for testing.

An interesting thought. Yesterday I moved over my dosing tube to dose into the body of the skimmer. I brought the dosing line in through the lid and then used a section of rigid tubing to drop the outlet down the neck into the skimmer body.

 

[dankaqua]

An interesting thought. Yesterday I moved over my dosing tube to dose into the body of the skimmer. I brought the dosing line in through the lid and then used a section of rigid tubing to drop the outlet down the neck into the skimmer body.

Very interested to hear whether your Lanthanum levels drop by dosing into the skimmer. I know those results will take a bit of time, but please update with your findings. Also, please post any changes in your PO4 levels as you go thru the process. Awesome thread, and I hope your SPS recover soon!