Extremely high ALK consumption

OP
ReefHunter006

ReefHunter006

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 27, 2020
Messages
171
Reaction score
61
Thank you for your responses and time.

I will hopefully have a successful update in a week or two.
I understand the concern. There's just not a perfect solution.

If you want to try a more conservative let the pH drop by using bicarbonate for alk, and possibly even more by adding Co2 if bicarbonate alone doesn't work.
 

Tom Stevens

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 8, 2018
Messages
428
Reaction score
804
Location
Costa Mesa
I do trust him and have full confidence he is relaying the best advice available. I am just scared that I will kill all my delicate sps if I turn off dosing and dkh drops by an incredible amount in a few short hours.

That’s a hard one to come to terms with fear wise is all.
Totally understandable. I never really solved my problem until I found where it was precipitating. It turns out i created a layer at the bottom of the sump in a not so obvious spot. Think of this way, if the corals are not using it, it is going somewhere.
 
OP
ReefHunter006

ReefHunter006

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 27, 2020
Messages
171
Reaction score
61
Totally understandable. I never really solved my problem until I found where it was precipitating. It turns out i created a layer at the bottom of the sump in a not so obvious spot. Think of this way, if the corals are not using it, it is going somewhere.
Just for clarity, should I take this to mean that any small amount (think size of pinky nail) of precipitation on heaters and such needs to be removed entirely or it drives increasingly more precipitation?

Or that in general any area in the sump with white/brown precipitant needs to be removed to stop further precipitation?

I always thought some precipitation was unavoidable, but I’m second guessing that thought now.
 
Last edited:
OP
ReefHunter006

ReefHunter006

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 27, 2020
Messages
171
Reaction score
61
Totally understandable. I never really solved my problem until I found where it was precipitating. It turns out i created a layer at the bottom of the sump in a not so obvious spot. Think of this way, if the corals are not using it, it is going somewhere.
I checked underneath the dosing lines. There is some precipitation but I feel like it isn’t a high amount. It looks similar to other tanks. I would have expected it to be caked on after dosing 100s of mls daily for two months.

what do you you think?

277F77D7-BB0F-45E6-A350-150ADFD87CB1.jpeg
 

Tom Stevens

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 8, 2018
Messages
428
Reaction score
804
Location
Costa Mesa
Just for clarity, should I take this to mean that any small amount (think size of pinky nail) of precipitation on heaters and such needs to be removed entirely or it drives increasingly more precipitation?
Mine was not a small amount. But yes, the precipitation seems to attract more precipitation.
 
Orphek OR3 reef aquarium LED lighting

Tom Stevens

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 8, 2018
Messages
428
Reaction score
804
Location
Costa Mesa
I checked underneath the dosing lines. There is some precipitation but I feel like it isn’t a high amount. It looks similar to other tanks. I would have expected it to be caked on after dosing 100s of mls daily for two months.

what do you you think?

277F77D7-BB0F-45E6-A350-150ADFD87CB1.jpeg
i agree, that does not look too bad. <scratches head>
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

Reef Chemist
View Badges
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
44,820
Reaction score
33,680
Location
Arlington, Massachusetts, United States
OP
ReefHunter006

ReefHunter006

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 27, 2020
Messages
171
Reaction score
61
That is normal, IME, for a high alk or high pH aquarium. The heat drives the precipitation and my heaters were always covered like that.

What is that Precipitate in My Reef Aquarium? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
Thank you for the link.

In your opinion does that amount of precipitation seem like the source?

My initial thoughts were that it was normal.

Given I cannot locate the source of any significant precipitation that would align with dosing 5-6 dkh for the last two months, would you attempt any changes?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

Reef Chemist
View Badges
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
44,820
Reaction score
33,680
Location
Arlington, Massachusetts, United States
Just for clarity, should I take this to mean that any small amount (think size of pinky nail) of precipitation on heaters and such needs to be removed entirely or it drives increasingly more precipitation?

Or that in general any area in the sump with white/brown precipitant needs to be removed to stop further precipitation?

I always thought some precipitation was unavoidable, but I’m second guessing that thought now.

It does not need to be removed, and yes, some is unavoidable unless you maintain low pH and alk.

Of course, removal temporarily eliminates the problem until more precipitates due to heat, but more often in non hot locations, the surface becomes "poisoned" for further CaCO3 precipitation by accumulating organics, magnesium, and phosphate getting onto the surface.

That process takes time, which is why slowing the precipitation at low ph and alk can allow those other things to take over and "clog" the surface.
 
Zoanthids

Randy Holmes-Farley

Reef Chemist
View Badges
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
44,820
Reaction score
33,680
Location
Arlington, Massachusetts, United States
Thank you for the link.

In your opinion does that amount of precipitation seem like the source?

My initial thoughts were that it was normal.

Given I cannot locate the source of any significant precipitation that would align with dosing 5-6 dkh for the last two months, would you attempt any changes?

Aside from sand hardening if the precipitate spans grains, it is hard to see it on sand and rock surfaces.

5-6 dKH per day (if accurate) is quite high and I think that unless you have very rapid SPS and coralline growth, that abiotic precipitation is a big part of it.
 
OP
ReefHunter006

ReefHunter006

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 27, 2020
Messages
171
Reaction score
61
Aside from sand hardening if the precipitate spans grains, it is hard to see it on sand and rock surfaces.

5-6 dKH per day (if accurate) is quite high and I think that unless you have very rapid SPS and coralline growth, that abiotic precipitation is a big part of it.
I am basing that dKH on the dosing instructions on the ESV bottles. (200ml/60gal)*2.07 > 6dkh

I might need to find directions for diluting this stuff to see if I can test it’s potency because I am at a loss.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

Reef Chemist
View Badges
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
44,820
Reaction score
33,680
Location
Arlington, Massachusetts, United States
Do you know if the bicarbonate version clearly states that it is bicarb on the label?

Ive been unable to find pictures in google.

It should, yes. Maybe it's not even still sold.
 
Champion Lighting & Supply
OP
ReefHunter006

ReefHunter006

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 27, 2020
Messages
171
Reaction score
61
It should, yes. Maybe it's not even still sold.
Took my CO2 scrubber offline last night to see what would happen.
So far to keep alk stable over the last 18ish hours it’s taken 38mls compared to 180 yesterday.

This got me thinking.

We know in my example that it was unlikely my corals were using 6 dkh when it’s mostly 20-30 sps frags.

I was unable to find precipitant in the usual spots.

Do you think it is possible while the CO2 scrubber is raising the PH of the tank generally, that the localized PH in the skimmer body is so high that there could have been abiotic precipitation in the skimmer and it was heading on up into the collection cup?

While I would like to keep PH above 8, do you think there are any solutions here?
My 125 in the garage which gets much less airflow ranges 8.1-8.2 day/night.

What could be generating additional CO2 that the other tank isn’t exposed to?

I would think ambient co2 would be higher in the garage where we work out. The only only thing I can think of is the ratio of livestock to water volume.

Would really like to hear your thoughts on some of this.

F983EBFA-4745-4C04-AE05-AF5653B4BA3B.png
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

Reef Chemist
View Badges
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
44,820
Reaction score
33,680
Location
Arlington, Massachusetts, United States
I think you'd easily see big deposits in the skimmer inside and cup if 6 dKH worth of calcium carbonate was depositing there each day.

But it may certainly be in places you do not see, or it may be a mistake somehow in not dosing as much as you think you are.
 
OP
ReefHunter006

ReefHunter006

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 27, 2020
Messages
171
Reaction score
61
I think you'd easily see big deposits in the skimmer inside and cup if 6 dKH worth of calcium carbonate was depositing there each day.

But it may certainly be in places you do not see, or it may be a mistake somehow in not dosing as much as you think you are.
I have done everything that I am capable of doing to ensure I was measuring this right. I’ve diluted samples of the 2 part, calibrated the dosers, bought brand new 2 parts, and logged changes over months.

I agree it could be in places I don’t see.

Since removing the CO2 reactor, I’ve compared amount needed to dos to maintain alkalinity at various ph levels.


At 8 to 8.02 ph I needed 2.3 mls this morning.

At that same ph range I need 5.8 mls on average historically.

My gut says there may be something to the localized ph in the skimmer body having something to do with it.

Why would you think that theory has issues with it?
 
Last edited:

Randy Holmes-Farley

Reef Chemist
View Badges
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
44,820
Reaction score
33,680
Location
Arlington, Massachusetts, United States
At 8 to 8.02 ph I needed 2.3 mls this morning.

At that same ph range I need 5.8 mls on average historically.

Let's back up.

You said in the first post in this thread that you were dosing 140 mL of B-ionic daily to a 60 gallon aquarium, or about 5 dKH per day. That's high.

now you are saying you needed 5.8 mL historically? That's super low for a 60 gallon aquarium. Only 0.2 dKh per day.

What are we trying to explain?
 
OP
ReefHunter006

ReefHunter006

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 27, 2020
Messages
171
Reaction score
61
Let's back up.

You said in the first post in this thread that you were dosing 140 mL of B-ionic daily to a 60 gallon aquarium, or about 5 dKH per day. That's high.

now you are saying you needed 5.8 mL historically? That's super low for a 60 gallon aquarium. Only 0.2 dKh per day.

What are we trying to explain?
Apologies, I was trying to explain the dose needed for PH 8 to 8.02. Which is roughly 1 hour of dosing. Historically the hour where Ph was 8 to 8.02 the dose would be 5.8ml

After I tore out the CO2 scrubber, the dose for the same PH (lights on for both) dose is 2.3 mls roughly an hour.

My total 24 hour dose has gone from 180mls to 68mls.

The goal of this post was to solve the consumption of 6dk daily.
 
Orphek OR3 reef aquarium LED lighting

Have you ever grown your own live aquarium food?

  • YES and it was a success (tell us in the thread)

    Votes: 64 22.9%
  • YES but I couldn't sustain it long term

    Votes: 40 14.3%
  • NO, I tried but couldn't

    Votes: 9 3.2%
  • NO, I have never tried

    Votes: 163 58.4%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 3 1.1%
Deltec
Top