Feeling Defeated by Phosphate

thedon986

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Hi all,

I could really use some input on what is going on with my phosphate levels. I have had dinos in this tank basically since setup in 12/2020. Recently in December I started to really crank up the SpongExcel dosing and am at 40ml per day through a doser. The dinos are almost totally gone and my sand is consistently white. The problem is my phosphates. I had been dosing NeoPhos daily to keep my level above 0ppb per Hanna ULR and most of last year I had been consistently around .1ppm. When I really turned up the silica dosing and the dinos receeded my phosphate started to explode for lake of a better term. I will post a table of my trending below but it seems to be getting out of hand. I have been dosing Phosphat-E with a 10 micron sock and skimming very wet. With Phosphate-E I am dosing around 3-4ml every other day and the trend seems to be phosphate dropping a little and then the next day jumping up even higher. At this point I am totally confused as to what is going on and can't tell if my test is picking up the phosphate bound by the lanthanum chloride or my rocks are really just releasing a ton of phosphate after dosing the tank for so long. Any opinions as what is happening here would be appreciated and maybe a plan of attack to figure out what is going on. Is the 10 micron sock not catching the phosphate particulate?? Am I really at 0ppm?? I am lost at this point. My alkaliniy has started to rise and I've stopped dosing there but I think that is because the corals are ticked and my montis are STN'ing over the past week, but I can't tell if that is actually because my phosphate is too high or low. All testers are Hanna.


DateNitrate (ppm)Phosphate (ppm)Phos TrendAlkalinity (dkh)
11/11/202115.70.11341%8.9
11/17/202120.00.16647%8.7
11/22/202116.30.19316%8.5
11/23/20210.22718%
11/29/202115.10.123-46%8.4
12/8/202110.00.356189%9.1
12/14/202112.60.309-13%8.2
12/19/20210.38023%
12/20/202112.90.242-36%8.5
12/21/20210.38358%
12/22/20210.224-42%
12/23/20210.31641%
12/27/202110.80.230-27%8.1
12/28/202110.40.31236%
12/29/20210.291-7%
12/30/20210.267-8%
1/1/2022100.35031%8.9
1/2/202210.40.218-38%
1/4/20220.33453%
1/5/202211.40.322-4%9.4
1/6/20220.44538%
1/7/202211.50.438-2%10.1
1/10/202212.20.54625%10.7
1/12/202212.20.500-8%10.5
1/13/20220.61323%
1/14/20220.561-8%
1/16/202210.20.518-8%11
1/18/20220.5180%11
1/20/20220.512-1%
1/21/20220.61320%
 

Lavey29

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Are you feeding corals? If so, stop. I would cut off all this various dosing to which just goes from one problem to the next. Try a bag of chemipure elite or blue in your sump or phosguard. Look into PNS probio which is a natural bacteria supplement to lower nitrate and phosphate numbers and it cleans the tank up.
 
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thedon986

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Only feeding one cube of frozen per day, 50/50 Hikari Mega Marine and Mysis. Only dosing SpongExcel, but I don't want to stop that yet I think I am nearly at the peak of beating dinos. I was running GFO but stopped because it was stripping the silica I was dosing right back out. It looks like both of those will remove silica as well. That is why I chose LC instead but I can't tell if my tester is giving me false readings or my rock really has that much bound phosphate.
 

Lavey29

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Only feeding one cube of frozen per day, 50/50 Hikari Mega Marine and Mysis. Only dosing SpongExcel, but I don't want to stop that yet I think I am nearly at the peak of beating dinos. I was running GFO but stopped because it was stripping the silica I was dosing right back out. It looks like both of those will remove silica as well. That is why I chose LC instead but I can't tell if my tester is giving me false readings or my rock really has that much bound phosphate.
My phosphate fluctuates from .1 to .3 depending on if I feed the corals during the week like oyster feast which spikes it. I run phosguard as needed to lower it back down. My nitrates are 18. Corals seem to thriving though so numbers don't always tell the picture. I recently started PNS probio because I like the natural bacteria approach to nutrients management. I'm about 3 weeks in and so far it seems to be really beneficial to my tank in several areas. My filter sock stays clean all week now. You may want to research this natural approach. If your corals are doing well then I would not over react to your phosphate number.
 

Dennis Cartier

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If you were dosing phosphate, your rocks will have a large pool of phosphate to leach. As you noted, catching the precipitate is important as your Hanna test will register it and make it appear that you have more unbound phosphate than you have.

Your alkalinity is most likely rising along with the increase in phosphate due to slower growth. Phosphate levels above 0.25 ppm are thought to make it harder for corals to deposit new skeleton. Based on your tracking, it looks like you are also entering a period of instability. This can also take a toll on your corals, especially with SPS, so if your monti's are waning, other types may follow.

When treating a tank for a pest, or even altering your approach, the tank stability is often affected, and the corals will bear the burden of it unfortunately.

My advice would be to try to moderate the instability. Letting your alk fall to between 7 and 8 will help your corals in a time like this. High alk works great for fast growth and healthy corals, not so much for times of stress.

Dennis
 

Dennis Cartier

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Also, how big is your tank? Sand or no sand? I dose 30ml of LaCl over about 7-10 days, 24x7 through my LaCl reactor and it keeps me at 40 ppb (0.12 ppm), and that is feeding my tank every other day a chunk of PE Mysis.

Dennis
 
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thedon986

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About 80 total gallons, with about 1" sand. Is a 10 micron sock small enough to catch particulate? I am changing them every day as they clog fast and washing with a shower arm on the highest pressure setting. What do you think of the drops and then the surges the next day? The drops seem to come when I dose LC and then the next day the big jump then it will level off and stay there if I don't dose LC, then repeat the drop and rise.
 

Muffin87

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catching the precipitate is important as your Hanna test will register it and make it appear that you have more unbound phosphate than you have.
Does the Hanna Phosphate really register lanthanum chloride precipitate as regular phosphate?
Just asking as this would actually make catching the precipitate a big deal for accurate testing.

I believe that Mark from melev's reef doses lanthanum chloride without filter floss or socks, he just lets the skimmer remove the precipitate.
 

Acros

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I am having the exact same issue after heavy SpongExcel dosing. My highest phosphate reading was 0.360 and it is holding steady around 0.250 since last 2 weeks. I stopped dosing SpongExcel about 2 weeks back. Fortunately, I believe that the dino bloom is over.

I am hesitant to use GFO this early. Maybe I will let it be until the end of the month and reconsider GFO.
 
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thedon986

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Yeah I think it does, but between the 10 micron sock and wet skimming, emptying the cup 2x a week I would hope I'm catching the particulate. I feel like I'm stuck, every time I try to lower it, it just bounces up higher.
 

Dennis Cartier

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Does the Hanna Phosphate really register lanthanum chloride precipitate as regular phosphate?
Just asking as this would actually make catching the precipitate a big deal for accurate testing.

I believe that Mark from melev's reef doses lanthanum chloride without filter floss or socks, he just lets the skimmer remove the precipitate.
Sure does. I tested that theory and posted about it in Detecting unfiltered Lanthanum Phosphate.

The rebound of the phosphate level is expected when you lower the amount in the watercolumn and then cease dosing. Your rocks and sand will then release enough phosphate to bring the watercolumn back into equilibrium with the bound phosphate levels.

To keep it from rebounding, you either need to dose LaCl slow and steady continuously, or use a media like GFO or Phosguard that will remove it slower. Though I would not use either of those at your levels.

I don't like too much maintenance, so I use a reactor I constructed to dose it 24x7. LaCl Dosing Reactor (No Socks!)

Dennis
 

Garf

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A pic of your tank would be good. I’ve had phos at 1.0 in a softy, no prob. 0.5 in my new tank, can’t see a problem.
 
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thedon986

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The worst pieces so far are my red digi and green cap. Although my miyagi tort looks like it might go south soon. Other SPS just look so so, and my LPS kind of the same. Softies are happy.
 

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Dennis Cartier

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Hmm, your corals don't look like they are browned out, and at the levels of phosphate and nitrate that you have, they very well could. So my guess is you have a limiting trace. My bet would be on iron. If you have ample phosphate and nitrate, which you do, and your corals are starving, which I suspect may be what you are seeing, then a limiting element may be preventing the zooxanthellae from utilizing the nitrate and phosphate.

There are a couple of ways to confirm this. Performing a water change will give a brief burst to your trace levels. It would probably take a few, depending on how regularly you are doing them now.

Another option is to dose an iron supplementation product. If it is an iron deficiency, a single dose (following the recommendation on the additive) will probably cause your corals to darken and potentially brown out. The browning out is not the objective here, but is more of a confirmation that they were limited and not able to utilize the nutrients efficiently. From that point on, you would need to carefully dose iron (or do regular water changes) to keep your levels up to allow your corals to gain nutrition and strength. The challenge is not over doing it as other less desirable things like algae will also be held back by the same limitation. so don't be surprised if a lot more than your corals have a growth spurt.

Lowering the alkalinity to mid 7's will also help your corals to gain strength. High alk is great for fast growth, but only when you have healthy corals that can sustain it. Lower alk is less stressful for them.

Dennis
 

Pistondog

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About 80 total gallons, with about 1" sand. Is a 10 micron sock small enough to catch particulate? I am changing them every day as they clog fast and washing with a shower arm on the highest pressure setting. What do you think of the drops and then the surges the next day? The drops seem to come when I dose LC and then the next day the big jump then it will level off and stay there if I don't dose LC, then repeat the drop and rise.
I do not dose lc daily, but when po4 gets to 0.5 ppm. Then I put in a 5 micron sock and drip phosphate e into the overflow, diluted 50:1, over 4 or 5 hours. I use 20 ml of phosphate e and that brings the po4 down from 0.5 to 0.15ppm in 125 g total. Below 0.2 use gfo. You can test po4 after to make sure you are removing it.
If you are not dosing into the overflow, you may have the lan phosphate in the tank, slewing the readings.
 
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thedon986

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I do not dose lc daily, but when po4 gets to 0.5 ppm. Then I put in a 5 micron sock and drip phosphate e into the overflow, diluted 50:1, over 4 or 5 hours. I use 20 ml of phosphate e and that brings the po4 down from 0.5 to 0.15ppm in 125 g total. Below 0.2 use gfo. You can test po4 after to make sure you are removing it.
If you are not dosing into the overflow, you may have the lan phosphate in the tank, slewing the readings.
I have been dosing 1ml at times throughout the day some dropped into skimmer neck and some into the skimmer intake. I will try portioning some into the overflow while running my 10 micron sock. I FEEL like it’s working but the levels just keep creeping up after dipping. I was dosing a lot of phosphate to keep levels above zero for a good three months so maybe the rocks just have a ton stored up?
 
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thedon986

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Hmm, your corals don't look like they are browned out, and at the levels of phosphate and nitrate that you have, they very well could. So my guess is you have a limiting trace. My bet would be on iron. If you have ample phosphate and nitrate, which you do, and your corals are starving, which I suspect may be what you are seeing, then a limiting element may be preventing the zooxanthellae from utilizing the nitrate and phosphate.

There are a couple of ways to confirm this. Performing a water change will give a brief burst to your trace levels. It would probably take a few, depending on how regularly you are doing them now.

Another option is to dose an iron supplementation product. If it is an iron deficiency, a single dose (following the recommendation on the additive) will probably cause your corals to darken and potentially brown out. The browning out is not the objective here, but is more of a confirmation that they were limited and not able to utilize the nutrients efficiently. From that point on, you would need to carefully dose iron (or do regular water changes) to keep your levels up to allow your corals to gain nutrition and strength. The challenge is not over doing it as other less desirable things like algae will also be held back by the same limitation. so don't be surprised if a lot more than your corals have a growth spurt.

Lowering the alkalinity to mid 7's will also help your corals to gain strength. High alk is great for fast growth, but only when you have healthy corals that can sustain it. Lower alk is less stressful for them.

Dennis
Interesting. My alk had been in the 8s until just this past month once coraline stopped growing and so did the corals. Yeah it’s strange my scripps and green slimer acros look mostly fine. My montis, birdnests, and miyagi tort seem to be going south though. I will wait a few more days to do a 30% water change and see what happens. I have not done one in a while and have backed down my all for reef dosing so there may be some missing trace elements in there but I’m trying to finish my amphidinium and coolia dinos once and for all.
 

Pistondog

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I have been dosing 1ml at times throughout the day some dropped into skimmer neck and some into the skimmer intake. I will try portioning some into the overflow while running my 10 micron sock. I FEEL like it’s working but the levels just keep creeping up after dipping. I was dosing a lot of phosphate to keep levels above zero for a good three months so maybe the rocks just have a ton stored up?
If your po4 levels were high, 1ppm, then the rocks would have a lot. While you were dosing, the po4 water level was low, so no much got into the rocks.
If you are seeing highest po4 levels ever, it is not coming from the rocks since the rocks cannot absorb higher levels than the water.
 

mehaffydr

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Do you have a refugium? If so I have found that increasing the light hours also helps decrease the phosphate. I have my light on 18 hours a day.
 
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thedon986

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Do you have a refugium? If so I have found that increasing the light hours also helps decrease the phosphate. I have my light on 18 hours a day.
I do but no cheato in there right now, some ulva and some type of rooting macro but doesn’t look like caulerpa. Since I have been dosing silica so heavily growth has really stopped in there. I’m guessing the diatoms are sucking trace nutrients after thinking about it for a while. I should be able to back down the silica dosing after one more week. My sand is looking real nice. I do have quite a bit of cyano in the fuge and some spots on the rocks with my phosphate being so high but I am leaving that there for now. Got the knife to the throat of my dinos and not backing down from that yet. After 14 months I am going to beat them this time.

For now I think I will keep up with the phosphat-e dosing. The source has got to slow down eventually. I’ll tell you what, I really regret not shutting the tank back down and selling off the corals I had to beat dinos from the start before I stocked up the whole dang thing.

@Pistondog i am curious how often you do dose phosphat-e to lower back down from .5ppm. My feeding is so minimal I can’t see that being the source of all this phosphate. I am dosing between 4-6ml of phosphat-e per day but it’s not making a dent.
 
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