Feeling Defeated by Phosphate

[Pistondog]

I do but no cheato in there right now, some ulva and some type of rooting macro but doesn’t look like caulerpa. Since I have been dosing silica so heavily growth has really stopped in there. I’m guessing the diatoms are sucking trace nutrients after thinking about it for a while. I should be able to back down the silica dosing after one more week. My sand is looking real nice. I do have quite a bit of cyano in the fuge and some spots on the rocks with my phosphate being so high but I am leaving that there for now. Got the knife to the throat of my dinos and not backing down from that yet. After 14 months I am going to beat them this time.

For now I think I will keep up with the phosphat-e dosing. The source has got to slow down eventually. I’ll tell you what, I really regret not shutting the tank back down and selling off the corals I had to beat dinos from the start before I stocked up the whole dang thing.

@Pistondog i am curious how often you do dose phosphat-e to lower back down from .5ppm. My feeding is so minimal I can’t see that being the source of all this phosphate. I am dosing between 4-6ml of phosphat-e per day but it’s not making a dent.

Every 3 to 4 weeks. Could you be measuring lanthanum phosphate with your po4 tester?. If you dose every day, some might remain in the water until skimmed out. Maybe 10 microns is not small enough. Do you see creamy skimmate, which I see when I run lc.
How can we verify you are removing it from your tank?

 

[thedon986]

Every 3 to 4 weeks. Could you be measuring lanthanum phosphate with your po4 tester?. If you dose every day, some might remain in the water until skimmed out. Maybe 10 microns is not small enough. Do you see creamy skimmate, which I see when I run lc.
How can we verify you are removing it from your tank?

I do get a huge amount of bubbles in my collection cup which is new since dosing phosphat-e but I have been skimming very wet to try to make sure I am getting it all out so the skimmate looks pretty watery I have noticed some brown residue build up in the bottom of the skimmer and around the intake. I might have to order some 5 micron to be sure. I have been changing my 10 micron daily and they get clogged within 24 hours sometimes. I thought the consensus was that 10 micron was enough.
Here is my collection cup after emptying yesterday.

 

[Pistondog]

Are you still dosing the spongexcel? Maybe that has phosphates.

 

[thedon986]

I am at a very high amount. 50ml per day until the end of the week and I should be good to reduce it. I have considered that but I should look into it.

 

[Calm Blue Ocean]

Are you feeding corals? If so, stop. I would cut off all this various dosing to which just goes from one problem to the next. Try a bag of chemipure elite or blue in your sump or phosguard. Look into PNS probio which is a natural bacteria supplement to lower nitrate and phosphate numbers and it cleans the tank up.

I've tried the bacterial route for PO4 reduction with no results but haven't tried PNS Probio. How is it being dosed?

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

I've tried the bacterial route for PO4 reduction with no results but haven't tried PNS Probio. How is it being dosed?

It is generally just poured directly into the main tank at 1.25 ml/gal (though it's often used in aquaculture facilities as a probiotic food additive). It can't be overdosed, so it doesn't necessarily need to be added via a doser. https://www.hydrospace.store/post/removing-phosphate-with-pns-bacteria

 

[131696]

Chasing #'s here's what to do a reactor with a shut off valve rowaphos control it there with valve ,your putting phosphates in tank with food,do not dose anymore phosphates control what you have in tank already, open ,shut the valve to control the phosphates till you get the # you want.easy

 

[thedon986]

Chasing #'s here's what to do a reactor with a shut off valve rowaphos control it there with valve ,your putting phosphates in tank with food,do not dose anymore phosphates control what you have in tank already, open ,shut the valve to control the phosphates till you get the # you want.easy

Yeah, I am stopping the LC dosing and silica dosing. I took a look under the microscope yesterday and still saw dinos perfectly happy along side A LOT of diatoms after 2 months of crazy silica dosing. I have come to the conclusion these will be with me forever potentially and my sand will never be white. I cant keep up the silica dosing I can tell it is decimating my diversity, pods in the fuge can't be seen anywhere. I am going to focus on getting everything back on track, resuming water changes, and letting phosphate be what it will be until it lowers over time. Extremely frustrating and I should have torn the tank down right after the dinos popped up in the beginning. After 14 months I have tried every recommendation and the dinos are still present. I must have quite the superman strain.

 

[MPCReefer]

It is generally just poured directly into the main tank at 1.25 ml/gal (though it's often used in aquaculture facilities as a probiotic food additive). It can't be overdosed, so it doesn't necessarily need to be added via a doser. https://www.hydrospace.store/post/removing-phosphate-with-pns-bacteria

@Kenneth Wingerter any need to turn off skimmer or remove socks when dosing?

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

@Kenneth Wingerter any need to turn off skimmer or remove socks when dosing?

They're just a few microns long, so no need to pull socks or any other mech filters. The skimmer is up to you--some users find cutting the skimmer to be inconvenient and are fine with the potential sacrifice (the jury is still out regarding how much skimming reduces picoplankton density). If you're looking to preserve as many cells as possible, we would suggest (admittedly somewhat arbitrarily) cutting the skimmer for at least three hours and for as long as 12-24 hours. If you opt to keep the skimmer on while dosing, we'd suggest adding the product immediately downstream from the skimmer.

 

[MPCReefer]

They're just a few microns long, so no need to pull socks or any other mech filters. The skimmer is up to you--some users find cutting the skimmer to be inconvenient and are fine with the potential sacrifice (the jury is still out regarding how much skimming reduces picoplankton density). If you're looking to preserve as many cells as possible, we would suggest (admittedly somewhat arbitrarily) cutting the skimmer for at least three hours and for as long as 12-24 hours. If you opt to keep the skimmer on while dosing, we'd suggest adding the product immediately downstream from the skimmer.

Thanks for the detailed response! Looking forward to seeing if probio helps with nutrient reduction and water clarity. Plan to start dosing this weekend.

 

[WVNed]

Does the Hanna Phosphate really register lanthanum chloride precipitate as regular phosphate?
Just asking as this would actually make catching the precipitate a big deal for accurate testing.

I believe that Mark from melev's reef doses lanthanum chloride without filter floss or socks, he just lets the skimmer remove the precipitate.

I add 10ml a day by doser. I dont catch it. My testing shows a decline.
I even tried these

In a Brut trashcan

Plugged in 2 days.
Gave up and let skimmers take it out.

 

[Muffin87]

I add 10ml a day by doser. I dont catch it. My testing shows a decline.
I even tried these

In a Brut trashcan

Plugged in 2 days.
Gave up and let skimmers take it out.

Thanks for this.
How long do you typically wait to test PO4, after dosing Lanthanum Chloride?
Are you using the Hanna Phosphate URL HI774?

I'm asking because generally I wouldn't see a decrease, if I tested 2-4 hours later.
I generally removed it with a Clarisea filter roller + skimmer, injecting the lanthanum chloride directly into the venturi.

 

[WVNed]

I dont wait. I treat is as a steady state problem. A doser adds 10ml over 24 hours. If my level is higher than I want I increase the dose to something like 15ml/day and then test again 2 days later.
The same as my alkalinity on a doser.
Yes I use a HI774

It's tricky in the beginning because it doesn't do what you think it's going to. It's the phosphate that is stored in the tank already before you started. I dosed several times the amount the calculator said to for a while to get it to come down and it would bounce on me. Come down where I wanted and I reduced the dose and it went back up. It's not linear at all at first. after months this went away.
And yes this was a little scary. I have heard the horror stories too.
I believe that my 3 nems went away because of LaCL. The just scrunched up and then shrank over months until gone.
Nothing else noticed as far as I could tell.
I don't keep mine that low anymore. The algae all went away and I have lots of things that eat it. Now I have to feed them.

The rocks are picked clean and I havent added more CUC in a long time.
I am running 2 sulfur denitrators, LaCl and biopellets and am letting the system sit at 0.1 phos and 10 nitrates.
I am about to go from 400 to 650-700 gallons by adding a 180 and a bigger sump. Then I will have to figure it all out again.

 

[Muffin87]

I dont wait. I treat is as a steady state problem. A doser adds 10ml over 24 hours. If my level is higher than I want I increase the dose to something like 15ml/day and then test again 2 days later.
The same as my alkalinity on a doser.
Yes I use a HI774

It's tricky in the beginning because it doesn't do what you think it's going to. It's the phosphate that is stored in the tank already before you started. I dosed several times the amount the calculator said to for a while to get it to come down and it would bounce on me. Come down where I wanted and I reduced the dose and it went back up. It's not linear at all at first. after months this went away.
And yes this was a little scary. I have heard the horror stories too.
I believe that my 3 nems went away because of LaCL. The just scrunched up and then shrank over months until gone.
Nothing else noticed as far as I could tell.
I don't keep mine that low anymore. The algae all went away and I have lots of things that eat it. Now I have to feed them.

The rocks are picked clean and I havent added more CUC in a long time.
I am running 2 sulfur denitrators, LaCl and biopellets and am letting the system sit at 0.1 phos and 10 nitrates.
I am about to go from 400 to 650-700 gallons by adding a 180 and a bigger sump. Then I will have to figure it all out again.

Your approach to nutrient reduction is exactly the one I'd like to reproduce. Lanthanum Chloride + Sulphur denitrator. Mind if I ask you some questions?

Alk/pH/Calcium:

• What's the impact of the two sulphur denitrators on the alkalinity and pH?
• Have you got to an Alk/Calcium imbalance that you corrected dosing way more Alk than Calcium?

Corals:

• Do you have any NPS corals like tubastrea? I think they'd thrive considering how much you can feed with your NO3/PO4 reduction strategy.
• I mostly see soft corals in your pic. Do you keep any LPS or easier SPS (stylophora, pocillopora porites)?

Lanthanum:

• Can the LaCl keep your PO4 level stable or does it fluctuate quite a bit?
• Which brand of LaCl do you use? I've tried Tropic Marin Elimi-Phos Rapid and Microbe Lift Phos-Out 4.
  Tropic Marin is convenient as it can be ordered in 1G jars where I am, the particulate can hardly be seen. Microbe Lift Phos-Out produces A LOT of white particulate it can cloud my tank.

Thanks a lot if you find some time to answer! Sorry if it's too many questions!

Just trying to make myself useful, but should you want to reduce your PO4 further, I'd give KZ Biomate a try. They're specific strands of bacteria. You only need dosing it twice a week and it uses the carbon dosing you're already doing with the Biopellets. The bacteria of Biomate are specific strands that eliminates mulm and reduces PO4.
I believe it's similar to Brighwell Microbacter Clean in some regards, with the exception that MicroBacter Clean doesn't claim to eliminate mulm.

 

[WVNed]

I have non reef safe fish so I dont invest in many corals. They ate the last SPS I got and that was that. Nubs laying on the bottom.
LPS I have a 20 head frogspawn, a grape and a bunch of blue ridge.

I dont test pH. I run outside air on my skimmers. To me pH is a derivative of everything else you do in the tank.
I have only seen a small difference in my alk consumption from the 2 denitrators. Nothing like what I was expecting.
I use Phosban L

I mix 1000ml with 2000ml RODI per the directions for my doser.
I used this calculator
http://larryl.emailplus.org.user.fm/fish/dosing-instructions-phosphate-removers.html
What I found was I had to use 3 times the calculated amount to get my phos down at first. Something like 40 ml/day.
That amount slowly declined over several months. You have to do testing. A lot of it.
Now I dose 10. The calculator says that will reduce .13 to.03 in 400 gallons but mine stays ay 0.1.
If I dosed 25 it would stay at .05. With what I keep it isn't that critical for me.

I add more phos every time I feed the fish. So part of the daily dose has to cover that. So you have to judge what your level is now, how much you add daily and then work it down to what you want it to be. That's why I think you end up using way more than what the calculator says at first. I got mine down to .05 for a while. The algae and cyano went away and then I let it rise back to 0.1 again.
Once I got the Hanna I realized I had been very poor at judging the colors on the Sailfert tests and mine was much higher to start than what I thought.

 

[Lavey29]

Thanks for the detailed response! Looking forward to seeing if probio helps with nutrient reduction and water clarity. Plan to start dosing this weekend.

I've been using it about 2 months. I dose in the DT twice a week. Stuff really works. Sand looks much cleaner, and my filter socks stays clean over a week. I also started using PNS yellow snow weekly. I have nutrient reduction but not sure if it is the fuge or PNS or both contributing.