Filtration

[charles.stine]

So I’ve been hung up on filtration for a new tank. When breaking it down your live sand and live rock do most of the filtration with mechanical just pushing water past a filter sock for larger particulate then biological filtration (rock, bioballs ect). If you don’t have a “need” for carbon is there a benefit to having mechanical at all? Mind you I’m not talking about flow which I know will be helped by mechanical filtration.

 

[ReefQuestCorals]

I ran filter socks for years, and they do a great job at polishing the water and removing particles. But my new tank will be solely dependent on rock, sand and protein skimmer. My first chamber is filled with rock and I will allow the system to break down the nutrients on its own. Now I may have to clean out that first chamber every once in a while to remove detritus build up.

But I believe once all the acros start growing in they will also start using the nutrients, I will help combat excess nutrients with water changes and carbon dosing if needed.

 

[charles.stine]

Carbon dosing I totally get, just cant decide on what to do for an actual filter so am leaning to keeping a more moderate flow and a large natural bio filtering system just curious what the feelings were on it before i fully commit

 

[ReefQuestCorals]

Carbon dosing I totally get, just cant decide on what to do for an actual filter so am leaning to keeping a more moderate flow and a large natural bio filtering system just curious what the feelings were on it before i fully commit

I mean there are many ways to accomplish what your looking for and end up with the same results. Do what you feel is best for your system and stick with it. Some of the best looking systems iv seen are high nutrients and no mechanical filters (filter socks, floss, fleece rollers, etc.) to remove particles. But also seen amazing systems run complete opposite. I think if you stick to whatever works for you and your system you will be successful

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

To me, the most important is biological filtration which is provided by the rocks.

To me, the next important filtration is to remove dissolved organics (docs) from the water. A protein skimmer does remove docs, and so does activated carbon.

I don't run any mechanical filtration on any of my tanks, but I do weekly water changes on them all, again, as another excellent way of removing docs.

I'm not sure what it means when you say that "flow is helped by mechanical filtration".... we use powerheads and wave makers for flow. Powerheads push more water into the filtration system.

 

[twentyleagues]

While flow from say a return pump does increase over all flow in the tank it should not be counted on or factored into in tank flow. When you do this people usually have too much flow through the filtration system and end up being not as efficient. Closed loop or in tank power heads need to be used as the source of flow for the tank.
I also run 0 mechanical filtration, technically a skimmer counts as mech filtration and I do run a skimmer but I am talking about socks or roller or fleece. I do have mulm in my sump and its not a bad thing. If you are utilizing mech filtration properly you will run a lower nutrient system but most people dont change the mech filtration enough unless you are using a roller. In my last system years ago the only place I had a sock was between my display refugium and return and it was only there to catch any large piece of macro that might break off and get sucked into the return pump. Unfortunately that also stopped any pods from traveling from the fuge to the rest of the system.

 

[Fish Fan]

So I’ve been hung up on filtration for a new tank. When breaking it down your live sand and live rock do most of the filtration with mechanical just pushing water past a filter sock for larger particulate then biological filtration (rock, bioballs ect). If you don’t have a “need” for carbon is there a benefit to having mechanical at all? Mind you I’m not talking about flow which I know will be helped by mechanical filtration.

Carbon dosing I totally get, just cant decide on what to do for an actual filter so am leaning to keeping a more moderate flow and a large natural bio filtering system just curious what the feelings were on it before i fully commit

Just to be clear, there's three basic types of filtration in these tanks:

• Mechanical filtration - things like socks, filter floss and pads all physically trap particles in the water and need to be replace often.
• Biological filtration - where beneficial bacteria process dissolved waste products. Rocks and sand are the primary, bioballs and the like also can be used.
• Chemical filtration - includes media like Granular Activated Carbon (GAC) and Granular Ferric Oxide (GFO) that remove things by reacting with them.

Please know that using granular activated carbon as a chemical media in your filter is NOT the same thing as carbon dosing, which involves adding vinegar or vodka to your tank as a source of elemental carbon.

Likewise, water flow in the tank is a separate discussion and essential if you want to keep corals.

And just to add on, you really need to start with purified freshwater to make new saltwater and to top off evaporated freshwater. Most of us have a Reverse Osmosis with DeIonization (RODI) filter to make freshwater for our tanks. If you don't have an RODI filter yet, you can buy gallons of distilled water at any grocery store or pharmacy.

Good luck!

 

[charles.stine]

Just to be clear, there's three basic types of filtration in these tanks:

• Mechanical filtration - things like socks, filter floss and pads all physically trap particles in the water and need to be replace often.
• Biological filtration - where beneficial bacteria process dissolved waste products. Rocks and sand are the primary, bioballs and the like also can be used.
• Chemical filtration - includes media like Granular Activated Carbon (GAC) and Granular Ferric Oxide (GFO) that remove things by reacting with them.

Please know that using granular activated carbon as a chemical media in your filter is NOT the same thing as carbon dosing, which involves adding vinegar or vodka to your tank as a source of elemental carbon.

Likewise, water flow in the tank is a separate discussion and essential if you want to keep corals.

And just to add on, you really need to start with purified freshwater to make new saltwater and to top off evaporated freshwater. Most of us have a Reverse Osmosis with DeIonization (RODI) filter to make freshwater for our tanks. If you don't have an RODI filter yet, you can buy gallons of distilled water at any grocery store or pharmacy.

Good luck!

All of your points are very valid and to my own fault I just may not have explained my point correctly. I was talking more about chemical media in filtration vs utilizing the live bio load of the tank to handle the natural filtration. This isn't my first tank just new to the forum. Have been into aquaculture for almost 20 years (since I was able to get into a vocational school in high school specifically geared toward marine sciences and aquaculture and have just continued since then.) So, while I do have a solid foundation in marine biology and chemistry, I am just looking to do something new at least to me and go with a tank without an actual chemical filter and rely more on the ecosystem that is developed to handle the needs of the tank.

 

[charles.stine]

While flow from say a return pump does increase over all flow in the tank it should not be counted on or factored into in tank flow. When you do this people usually have too much flow through the filtration system and end up being not as efficient. Closed loop or in tank power heads need to be used as the source of flow for the tank.
I also run 0 mechanical filtration, technically a skimmer counts as mech filtration and I do run a skimmer but I am talking about socks or roller or fleece. I do have mulm in my sump and its not a bad thing. If you are utilizing mech filtration properly you will run a lower nutrient system but most people dont change the mech filtration enough unless you are using a roller. In my last system years ago the only place I had a sock was between my display refugium and return and it was only there to catch any large piece of macro that might break off and get sucked into the return pump. Unfortunately that also stopped any pods from traveling from the fuge to the rest of the system.

see this is exactly what i am talking about! I want to try to get away from idea that you need chemical filtration. In no way am I talking about having to dose as that's a completely separate subject.

 

[Fish Fan]

see this is exactly what i am talking about! I want to try to get away from idea that you need chemical filtration. In no way am I talking about having to dose as that's a completely separate subject.

Where did the poster you're quoting here say not to run chemical media? They were specifically talking about mechanical media, which a lot of people don't use.

What are you trying to accomplish by not using chemical media? I have tanks where I very rarely use any chemical media (typically GAC (mostly because I'm lazy)), but the water isn't as clear as it could be. If you have corals, you may have toxins that chemical media can help with as well.

There are some that run very little to no GAC because it's associated with HLLE disease seen in some fishes.

 

[Freenow54]

So I’ve been hung up on filtration for a new tank. When breaking it down your live sand and live rock do most of the filtration with mechanical just pushing water past a filter sock for larger particulate then biological filtration (rock, bioballs ect). If you don’t have a “need” for carbon is there a benefit to having mechanical at all? Mind you I’m not talking about flow which I know will be helped by mechanical filtration.

Don't like socks don't seem to work for me. I like my Fluval canister because you can add media as needed which they make, Also have a marineland water polisher which also contributes. For everyday filtration I use baton meant to stuff cushions which you can buy at a fabric store I get 6 feet by 4 feet which I cut up and put in a sump chamber. Costs me $20 good for months

 

[twentyleagues]

Where did the poster you're quoting here say not to run chemical media? They were specifically talking about mechanical media, which a lot of people don't use.

What are you trying to accomplish by not using chemical media? I have tanks where I very rarely use any chemical media (typically GAC (mostly because I'm lazy)), but the water isn't as clear as it could be. If you have corals, you may have toxins that chemical media can help with as well.

There are some that run very little to no GAC because it's associated with HLLE disease seen in some fishes.

Yeah I dont typically use chemical filtration but I am not opposed to chemical filtration except as you say GAC. Gac has been shown to increase the possibility of HLLE in marine and fresh water fish. If I need to use it for some reason say to pull out some sort of med I use a very high quality pellet version and do my best to make sure it isnt in heavy flow that would cause it to break down. For water clarity I use diy coral snow weekly not sure if you would consider it chemical filtration or not, I guess so. I am not opposed to using GFO if needed but I dont really worry about phosphate or nitrates that much anyway. I have run tanks with very high phosphates before and saw nothing wrong with any of my corals good color good growth.

 

[BryanM]

see this is exactly what i am talking about! I want to try to get away from idea that you need chemical filtration. In no way am I talking about having to dose as that's a completely separate subject.

If you want to get away from chemical filtration you certainly can, and there's plenty of ways to do that.

The only reason I have filter socks in place today is dealing with dinos. Otherwise the only filter I have is an algae turf scrubber. Previous tank was a skimmer and filter roller.

 

[Fish Fan]

Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding the question. Are we talking about not using carbon and chemical media, or not using mechanical media?

 

[UtahReefer]

There are many ways to reef... Folks out there with high numbers, low numbers and both are successful. For example, I just don't want to use any form of chemical filtration. I have reefed for most of my lifetime (62 yr old geezer now). I prefer running a UNLS. Over the years it has brought me the most success. Contradictory to what most folks think, UNLS systems are actually very high nutrient systems. They have low residual PO4 and NO3, but you are dosing nutrients into the system all the time. With this method filtration requires only a couple of things: Large particle mechanical (ie; filter socks, pads of roller filter), a good protein skimmer is essential, carbon, and in my case Zeolites because I run the ZEOvit System. That's what has worked for me. In addition, a dosing method for Calk, Alk, and Mag that helps keep the precipitation down. In my experience it helps to keep the system cleaner. No rocks in the sump where detritus / precipitations can gather and create problems. My only advise is the choose your method and stick with it. Don't keep changing things to the "flavor of the month" club. Be consistent.

 

[Freenow54]

Here is a question. I am dosing K+ and A- in my new tank via the sump, as it warns you to not let concentrated solution contact coral directly. Any idea ho I could add it to my 40 that has no sump to avoid this?

 

[twentyleagues]

Here is a question. I am dosing K+ and A- in my new tank via the sump, as it warns you to not let concentrated solution contact coral directly. Any idea ho I could add it to my 40 that has no sump to avoid this?

Take a cup of tank water out and dilute it in that and dispense it into an area with high flow that is not directed directly at corals.

 

[Fish Fan]

Here is a question. I am dosing K+ and A- in my new tank via the sump, as it warns you to not let concentrated solution contact coral directly. Any idea ho I could add it to my 40 that has no sump to avoid this?

Add it in front of a powerhead or return so it dissipates as quickly as possible.

EDIT: I did not see the post above already, sorry for the dupe :)

 

[Freenow54]

Take a cup of tank water out and dilute it in that and dispense it into an area with high flow that is not directed directly at corals.

Yes just don't know how potent the stuff is. Do Not want to find out the hard way this is why I am cautious

 

[James Franco]

Throwing in a media bag - over time, even once the media is "used up" becomes a home for copepods and bacteria.