First time cycle... params look ok?

gray808 · Jul 22, 2020

Today is Day 10 of my cycle. I am using the Red Sea Reef Mature system. Brand new tank, with new dry Marco (Macro?) rocks, mostly Nature's Ocean BioActive pink reef sand (the wet stuff), a little more fine Somoan Pink sand, and a couple handfuls of Florida Keys crushed coral. In addition to the Red Sea, I also added a bottle of Purple Helix at about day 2 or 3. Also have a 8x9" Brightwell Aquatics media plate in the sump. I have a skimmer, but am not running it yet.

Anyway, having never done this, I'm looking for reassurance that all is going well. According to the instructions, today's NH3 and PO2 should be 0, with Nitrate around 10. I don't see that happening.

Also, the instructions seem to think my dKH would be under 8.4, but it's only been under one time.

The brighter green marks when I swapped from the Red Sea test kit for that param, to a Hanna digital checker.

Thoughts?

Am I on the correct course? Or see anything that is obviously going badly?

Does it just take longer for pure dry rock to get cycling?

What should I expect over the next couple weeks?

--Gray

Spare time · Jul 22, 2020

Any clue why your ammonia went back up? Also, you do not need to test dKH at this time. Also, you could have had a little extra ammonia from stuff in the sand that was dead and being broken down. Also, do you have a skimmer running? If so, wait top run that (unless you have dosed all of your bacteria), filter socks, or carbon until the cycle is done. Just make sure you don't dose nopox with the skimmer off or while you have ammonia as it promotes competition with the bacteria trying to remove ammonia and nitrite for phosphate).

Side note here: Be careful with the brightwell plate. They crumble super easily and can get caked up. I would honestly save that brick for a fish qt system and use something more durable in your display such as matrix or ceramic rings. I know this would slow your cycle a little bit but I had a dino outbreak from taking one of those plates out when it was creating a mess in my refugium.

This is also a good video to watch. He has a lot of tips and hints for speeding up a cycle

gray808 · Jul 22, 2020

No idea on the ammonia. Possible user-error on the test, I've found I am not much a fan of the "drip" tests.

I'm not running skimmer now, though I did for a couple days (just outputting back into the water, it never really seemed to get dialed in, and was constantly overflowing, I guessed it was just not enough bio in the water for it to work correctly).

The plate has been more solid than I imagined, I'd read of people having them fall apart, but mine hasn't deteriorated at all. I'll look into getting some rings.

I replaced the socks with acrylic cups holding floss. I've changed that twice (first was basically the 2nd day the tank was running, getting rid of all the sand clouding), no carbon.

As for dKH, the Red Sea kit has me test it, and has a Coraline Gro additive, but it;s been higher than their point they say to keep it at, so I haven't dosed any as yet.

I'll watch the video now

--Gray

Spare time · Jul 22, 2020

You may not want floss as of now (if it is in the cups) as to prevent your bacteria from growing on the floss. You could always add a little more bacteria if you are out and want it to cycle faster (I do so when I add the first fish). Once the ammonia and nitrite are gone, you should be good to go. Have fun!

splitting_lanes · Jul 22, 2020

Looks good to me, steady as she goes!

when ammonia and nitrite hits zero, you’ll be ready for the next steps

Jason Truong · Jul 22, 2020

Just give it another week or two and don't look at it! It'll stress you out and give you false hope sometimes!

GravaD Reefing · Jul 22, 2020

Your nitrate (NO3) seems very high for just cycling. What source water did you use to mix with salt?

How are you adding ammonia to the system? Chemical, fish food, shrimp or just organic break down from the sand?

gray808 · Jul 22, 2020

GravaD Reefing said:
Your nitrate (NO3) seems very high for just cycling. What source water did you use to mix with salt?

Fresh RO/DI mixed with Red Sea Coral Pro salt.

GravaD Reefing said:
How are you adding ammonia to the system? Chemical, fish food, shrimp or just organic break down from the sand?

The only thing I am adding are the 3 additives in the Red Sea Reef Mature kit: Nitro-Bac (nitrifying bacteria), Bacto-Start (" A balanced blend of nitrogen and phosphorus components"), and NO3

O4:X ("a unique liquid carbon complex that stimulates and supports the growth of nitrate and phosphate-reducing bacteria").

They have been added in the following amounts:
Nitro-Bac: Day 2 (53ml),day 3 (26ml), day 8 (13.5ml), day 10 (13.5ml)
Bacto-Start: Day 2 (26ml), day 7 (26ml), day 11 (13.5ml)
No3

O4:X: Every day at 8ml, 6ml on the 21st and final day

--Gray

Cell · Jul 22, 2020

Not sure I'd be dosing NOPOX to a cycling tank, but I'm not familiar with Red Sea's Reef Mature System. Your nitrates do seem a bit high, I'd probably stop dosing everything at this point other than ammonia to double check for processing once it zeroes out.

I like what I see Day 3-5 though. Cannot see what your NH3 is on day 10. If you didn't re-dose ammonia on day 7, I'd try getting the test nailed down a little better.

gray808 · Jul 22, 2020

After watching the video of Dr Tim, I decided to take some of his advice. I've killed my lights for the rest of the cycle. Removed my floss. Raised temp a bit. I'm not going to play with salinity, cause it was kinda a pain to get right to 1.025 and I don't want to have to fiddle again.

Also pulling the Brightwell block, and replacing with Marine Pure bio-balls. The block will go to the QT that I am slowly acquiring parts for.

--Gray

gray808 · Jul 29, 2020

OK, I'm starting to get a but worried. Nothing on the Red Sea instructions is coming true.

Latest params:

Day 9 is when I last posted. Since then, I've stopped adding NO3

o4:X, based off of suggestions here.
Based on the linked Dr Tim video:
I stopped running my lights.
I removed the floss from the cups.
Bumped temp up (did not bump salinity down, as I have it dialed into 1.025, and don't want to &^%$ with it).

I had to drive back to Seattle for an unexpected reason, so missed a couple of days measurement.

Bright greens reflect when I got a Hanna Checker for that item.
By now, according to the Red Sea instructions, I should be a 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrate, and ~2 Nitrite.
Obviously, I am not. I got the Hanna Nitrite checker today, and used it to backstop my Red Sea titration kit readings: it's off the scale, over 200 ppb (so, 2 ppm?)

I am not sure what to do here.

I've bought a bottle of Dr Tims One and Only, thinking that might help, but at this point... I'm kinda confused and baffled.

--Gray

splitting_lanes · Jul 29, 2020

gray808 said:
I am not sure what to do here.

it’s a waiting game. It will sort itself out, the bacteria will grow and the parameters will go to 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and nitrate will rise.

give it a couple more weeks

Cell · Jul 30, 2020

What days have you dosed ammonia?

Day 18 of cycle @brandon429

brandon429 · Jul 30, 2020

This tank was inoculated with three sources of bac as I read

1. natural bac, crushed coral from the beach. Will commute it’s resident bacteria to the rest of the tank within 20 days using no extra boosters or feed added, per Tuffloud’s connecting two reefs thread, where he tracks how long it takes for a totally dry system with no inoculations to fully cycle, merely by connecting it to a full running reef via one input pvc and one outflow pvc. That video above says nitrifiers aren’t in the water, that thread shows they sure are.

Connecting Established Reef To New Tank

So ill give you an update on my woes. Lol. I finally have a hold on my acros, I lost 10 during my addition. It took me a few days to finally get the sodium nitrate in. I recieved it wed and started dosing immediately. Now I have my nitrates at 8 and po4 about .15 and my lights are dimmed to...

www.reef2reef.com

2. wet bagged sand. Any industry that sells something wet must invest hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep wet items free of bacteria coming out of the production line, and reef sand companies don’t do that. Wet sand is filter bac laden. 20 days till it commutes to surrounding surface area along with first set, ~7 days if well fed and this system has been fed/boosted

3. actual bottle bac, multi strain inoculation.

Verdict
if you change out wastewater here, and add animals they live because this system is cycled.

why don’t my tests agree? Because ten thousand searches right now show this same -stated- ammonia level in five year tanks, misread is why. This isn’t a digital ammonia tester, it’s a vial read and that’s subjective. Seneye would not agree with the levels above, it’d read differently.

nitrite doesn’t factor. Just like the claim reef water has few/no inoculants nitrite can’t stall a cycle so we don’t use nitrite in updated reef cycling, none of our tests for nitrite are digital readouts they’re partial blue partial clear subjective reads, and they cross-read from other params in the tank related to nitrogen species. Reference: my matured tank still shows nitrite threads while everything in the reef is doing fine.

if this thread was pasted into my new cycling thread, it’d be first post

and all the animals would live. This tank is cycled, test me live time accountability by changing water, put down test kits, start reefing.

Post here any claimed stuck cycle and we will unstick it.

How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

non digital ammonia test kit readings (api, Red Sea, nyos, seachem badges) make you think you aren’t cycled when indeed you are if you owned a $200 expensive seneye meter, you’d never be doubting your cycle status. since .01% of the reefing population owns these, we need a way to help the...

www.reef2reef.com

brandon429 · Jul 30, 2020

If the cycling graph above was built using seneye ammonia and lab gear digital nitrite measures, then the crowd here would be agreeing it’s cycled. Our hobby takes the lead from mass mis-reading test kits and places that info above what bac are already known to do by any cycling chart on the web: controls ammonia by day ten and nitrite by day 25, which we‘re at here but simply can’t test for it the right way.

we accept any stated measure about bac, and immediately assume bac are dead, dying, retrograded

no reef tank cycle has stalled, not ever, though that video seems to paint it as quite common. Buy more bottle bac heh jj

this reef is cycled. Two ways to prove it: 1. change out water add fish and they live. Or 2. Change out water for new. Take a new ammonia read on that water, it’ll still show low level free ammonia since it’s not seneye, this new read is calibrated zero for guess tests.

dose liquid ammonium chloride to the smallest degree you can register a change up, from calibrated zero. Not 2 ppm, the slightest change up from calibrated zero, post that pic.

in 48 hours the sample will go back down, to calibrated zero which is still some free ammonia on non seneye testers, and that proves fish will live because the tank is cycled. There is no zero reading for nh3 in reefing, so waiting for a guess test to show a param that doesn’t exist is 100% of the problem in stuck cycle threads and none of them are actually stuck.

we fix stuck cycles by simply typing ‘no you aren’t stuck’ and they change water and add life and it lives. Admit this is funny in a chemistry world of detailing, exacting tests (so we‘d like to think)

how a cycle could be stuck: someone assembles no inoculant all dry tank, fills it with saltwater, adds fish, they die. An unassisted cycle takes months, so adding bioload too fast will result in obvious loss. But any cycle on the web? They’ve all done multi inocs- they’re cycled.

bottle bac alone is tested and shown to cycle within 5-7 days, any strain. We’re at day 20 ish on multi inputs here. The only doubt mechanism is the tester (either api, Red Sea or salifert or nyos) building the graph. It’s not seneye or lab gear digital

*we do see seneye misread threads they’re just fewer than colorimetric tests, and not even seneye misreads report nh3 in the tenths, though that reading comprises nearly all test tube reads. This is why I still trust seneye more. Uncontrolled ammonia in the tenths ppm will kill the first fish or CUC added. Try and find and post one single bottle bac + fish- in cycle where the fish died quickly, like what happens in the total dry start comparison above.

gray808 · Jul 30, 2020

@brandon429 What you've posted doesn't make any sense to me.

Are you saying I should ignore everything out there that tells me to test my water?

I may be misreading my Nitrates and Nitrites, but I don't think so. Both are the magenta/purple that is the max read on the scale, I don't see how I could be mis-reading them *under*. And the Hanna checker seems to validate at least the Nitrite, as it is reading over-scale, 200+ppb.

The Ammonia test also seems possible to be misread, but again, it looks pretty exact when I look at it.

I will take a picture of all three tests when I do it later today.

brandon429 said:
Verdict
if you change out wastewater here, and add animals they live because this system is cycled.

Are you saying that if you use live sand, and the other stuff, no matter what, the tank is cycled? That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

brandon429 said:
nitrite doesn’t factor. Just like the claim reef water has few/no inoculants nitrite can’t stall a cycle so we don’t use nitrite in updated reef cycling, none of our tests for nitrite are digital readouts they’re partial blue partial clear subjective reads, and they cross-read from other params in the tank related to nitrogen species. Reference: my matured tank still shows nitrite threads while everything in the reef is doing fine

You are saying that any amount of Nitrite is fine? I know the test can be subjective, but I don't see how it can be so subjective that I mistake clear as super bright, saturated magenta.

brandon429 said:
dose liquid ammonium chloride to the smallest degree you can register a change up, from calibrated zero. Not 2 ppm, the slightest change up from calibrated zero, post that pic.

in 48 hours the sample will go back down, to calibrated zero which is still some free ammonia on non seneye testers, and that proves fish will live because the tank is cycled. There is no zero reading for nh3 in reefing, so waiting for a guess test to show a param that doesn’t exist is 100% of the problem in stuck cycle threads and none of them are actually stuck.

It's never, not once, been zero. It hit it's lowest, 0.1, on day 5 then has been bouncing back up and down between 0.4 and 1.2 the whole time.

--Gray

gray808 · Jul 30, 2020

Cell said:
What days have you dosed ammonia?

The Red Sea kit uses something call NOPOX (NO3

O4-X, but the forum garbles it into a emoticon), which I believe is the equivalent of dosing ammonia. I just got a bottle of ammonia chloride solution with the Dr Tims bac, but haven't used any yet.

The kit had me dosing 8ml each day. I stopped when I first posted, day 9 was the last dose.

--Gray

brandon429 · Jul 30, 2020

I’ve said you met the -submersion- time frames for each method of inoculation to cover the rest of the tank

if your tank was on day 5 it’d be different. your cycle being finished was unclear since the factor of # of days underwater for you, and what that shows on the time axis of a cycling chart, hasn’t been factored in the initial posts. You are using test kits that make false reads, we detailed.

also two offered proofs, you can run

running the calibrated zero oxidation test on clean water is testing, and it’s proof. I could link you a hundred threads showing nitrite not affecting any reef cycle but it wouldn’t matter, what matters is you have a way to test claims by putting in life, and it doesn’t die.

or pre test before adding life with calibrated testing.

I know your tank is ready due to the time frame until the first ammonia drop (compare that to any cycling chart for ammonia control on the time axis)

that you reported ammonia rising then holding just after, that’s the test error part. First drop down is cycled.

im not used to anyone accepting my cycle ideas agreed

but when they add fish and fish live, or run the calibrated zero test, I always get new entrants into non stuck cycle threads who now use new ways to cycle.

dont think what I post is too far out of bounds: they get MACNA conventions to all start on time, 400 reef tanks cycled by Friday, using these exact same calculations. And, they don’t show up 19 days early to begin like your tank has had, and convention cycles are exactly as set in as a thirty day wait cycle, this has all been covered in Dr. Reefs bottle bac testing thread here, 90 pages. You added bottle bac already tested to be ready at day 7 ish. That your ammonia test doesn’t agree is expected. That nitrite is present doesn’t matter, I read that in Randys posts here about the neutrality of nitrite in reefing and make it a point to relay that in my cycling threads.

look up your # of days underwater on a cycling chart, where only ammonia matters not the other two params. You’re cycled (can add reef, can move to MACNA) nearly two weeks ago. Cell knows I cannot resist a microbiological baiting anymore than a catfish can resist a huge bite of rotting liver. I’m 100% certain this reef is cycled in every way we can proof a cycle other than Red Sea ammonia