First time cycle... params look ok?

[Funston07]

Ammonia (a little less clear in the pic, by eye it was fairly obvious in the 0.2 band):

Nitrate:

Nitrite:

Both the last, to me at least, can't be anything other than the max reading on the card.

--Gray

That ammonia is fine, alot of test kits will never go to a true zero best way is to tell 100% is add ammonia to get your levels to 2ppm and it should drop back down within 24hrs. As far as the Nitrite maybe you got a bad batch of reagent.

 

[brandon429]

Gray let me know your thoughts on the MACNA analogy related to your tank. If you were invited to bring this tank fully stocked to MACNA tomorrow, how could that be pulled off, what extra things or costs would you have to add here, so that your tank is in compliance with the others who are present and ready for doors open/customers to buy things out of your tank?

instead of just hashing details on one cycle, it’s handy to compare to big-picture cycling examples where dry systems and live rock transfer systems are made ready all by a given date. At aquashella Dallas 2019, several tanks were instant dry start tanks with fish and some corals to demo the abilities of bottle bac, what aspect of your cycle makes your tank not ready by day 20 prep, is it just the test kits not reading zero that makes it feel not ready?

you can easily find threads here where Randy states nitrite doesn’t factor, so focusing on your ammonia only seems prudent. **you have your calibrated zero ammonia reading above** so if it helps to know, you can dose that up to the next level change, stay below 2 ppm for tester quality reasons, and when it moves back down to color above thats testing proof you are cycled, hope that helps.

With updated cycling science we know the movement down is what counts, not the zero. When digital ammonia tests are used, we can see there isn’t a zero in reefing that’s key here. I’m offering for you to test differently, not to forego it. Adding fish wasn’t a guess, it was to show you are ready like the tons of threads we collect on this matter (I haven’t linked here but summarized) but you can still use this baseline test above to re-prove this tank is ready, even though ammonia has already dropped once prior.

Each time you register the drop it’s proof of cycle ready and one week bottle bac indeed working, your cycle isnt stalled at all its ready. It’s also handy if you wait till all three params line up classically, that helps us track how long it takes these non digital reads to allow a start compared to the known digital read systems out there.


either way this is a useful cycling thread.

* consider this detailed thread:

Bio-spira works great

I just started a new tank a little over a week ago. I started with all dry rock and new sand. I added a bottle of Bio-Spira and put fish and coral the same day. Never saw any ammonia and fish and coral seem healthy.

www.reef2reef.com

the reason that applies to you, is fast ammonia control after bottle bac use vs waiting 30 days. its simply to show how people use updated cycling info, and to make what I type seem less crazy. in your tank I was remarking a couple clownfish and snails will be fine, thats because in his tank he puts a $300 anemone + full reef and eight fish on day one. You're + 20 more days development...the offer to begin with a typical start is framed against hundreds of threads like Ike's.

 

[gray808]

Gray let me know your thoughts on the MACNA analogy related to your tank. If you were invited to bring this tank fully stocked to MACNA tomorrow, how could that be pulled off, what extra things or costs would you have to add here, so that your tank is in compliance with the others who are present and ready for doors open/customers to buy things out of your tank?

instead of just hashing details on one cycle, it’s handy to compare to big-picture cycling examples where dry systems and live rock transfer systems are made ready all by a given date. At aquashella Dallas 2019, several tanks were instant dry start tanks with fish and some corals to demo the abilities of bottle bac, what aspect of your cycle makes your tank not ready by day 20 prep, is it just the test kits not reading zero that makes it feel not ready?

you can easily find threads here where Randy states nitrite doesn’t factor, so focusing on your ammonia only seems prudent. **you have your calibrated zero ammonia reading above** so if it helps to know, you can dose that up to the next level change, stay below 2 ppm for tester quality reasons, and when it moves back down to color above thats testing proof you are cycled, hope that helps.

With updated cycling science we know the movement down is what counts, not the zero. When digital ammonia tests are used, we can see there isn’t a zero in reefing that’s key here. I’m offering for you to test differently, not to forego it. Adding fish wasn’t a guess, it was to show you are ready like the tons of threads we collect on this matter (I haven’t linked here but summarized) but you can still use this baseline test above to re-prove this tank is ready, even though ammonia has already dropped once prior.

Each time you register the drop it’s proof of cycle ready and one week bottle bac indeed working, your cycle isnt stalled at all its ready. It’s also handy if you wait till all three params line up classically, that helps us track how long it takes these non digital reads to allow a start compared to the known digital read systems out there.


either way this is a useful cycling thread.

* consider this detailed thread:

Bio-spira works great

I just started a new tank a little over a week ago. I started with all dry rock and new sand. I added a bottle of Bio-Spira and put fish and coral the same day. Never saw any ammonia and fish and coral seem healthy.

www.reef2reef.com

the reason that applies to you, is fast ammonia control after bottle bac use vs waiting 30 days. its simply to show how people use updated cycling info, and to make what I type seem less crazy. in your tank I was remarking a couple clownfish and snails will be fine, thats because in his tank he puts a $300 anemone + full reef and eight fish on day one. You're + 20 more days development...the offer to begin with a typical start is framed against hundreds of threads like Ike's.

I'm not looking for advice on how to make it ready for a show in a weekend.
I'm looking for advice for how to make it ready, long term.
Pretty much all your information has been overload, doesn't seem to apply, and seems counter to the 99% of what everyone else is saying. I don't want to be on the cutting edge of some new method... I just want my tank to cycle to the point where I am comfortable with it being actually cycled.

--Gray

 

[gray808]

what aspect of your cycle makes your tank not ready by day 20 prep, is it just the test kits not reading zero that makes it feel not ready?

you can easily find threads here where Randy states nitrite doesn’t factor, so focusing on your ammonia only seems prudent

The fact that for the vast majority of what I've read is saying those readings should be close to zero.
Just because some random dude named Randy said something doesn't make me think it's prudent to ignore the other two readings.

Maybe y'all have the next big thing. If so, in a few years if/when I do a second tank, maybe I'll go with that. But until I see solid proof, I'm gonna still follow what today seems to be the consensus.

--Gray

 

[brandon429]

Randy= this is his forum, RHF/ reliable source for input.

that you’re unopen to consider updated info is abundantly clear, nobody has forced your hand you can cycle as you please.

 

[Cell]

Can't win them all.

 

[brandon429]

I don‘t mind at all. We track all threads claiming to have a stalled cycle regardless of the technique used, glad to have this one added.

 

[gray808]

OK, then lets be clear about what is being suggested:
It doesn't matter that my Nitrites are pegged off the board, high enough that I don't know if they are 1 or 1000.
It doesn't matter that my Nitrates are pegged off the board, high enough that I don't know if they are 50 5000.
It's ok that my ammonia has never reached zero.
I should just assume that any test reading I don't like means I have a bad test kit.

Because that is what I am taking from every post from Randy.

If I am misreading it, then it's unclear what you are intending me to get from it.

--Gray

 

[brandon429]

That's generally it, agreed

What did you think about ikes cycle from the prior link? How did he pull all that off day 1

See how his cycle wasn't weak (half year since, still running) even though it was a speed cycle

 

[gray808]

I don't understand it. With this method, I have 1 and only one thing I am measuring for, Ammonia.

If there is a Nitrite spike, I'll have no idea it's happening.
If there is a Nitrate spike, I'll have no idea it's happening.

Is it "well, fish died, there must be a problem"? That seems reckless.

Let's say my kits are NOT bad, and those readings are correct. It doesn't matter at all that I have an unknown, but large, amount of NO2 and NO3?

It just seems like in this way you have no idea what is happening in your tank. And all of the examples seem to be of tanks that are set up for a weekend, not for a lifetime.

--Gray

 

[brandon429]

How about this work, shows a pattern of happy start reefs no losses.

We should use the collective power of the chem forum to prove or deny the possibility of sustained .25 ammonia in reefing

Why does it matter if reef tanks can have stuck cycles? Because when you move homes you don't want to lose animals, cycling science needs precision and predictability in order to protect our tanks. perhaps an emergency setup is needed, no wait time permitted or If you are invited to show...

www.reef2reef.com

20 live cycles for proof work included

The whole thread is proofing that stated ammonia readings holding in the tenths, from any brand of tester including seneye, cannot be right. I realize when heels r dug in, no progress can be made/ just wanting to show how much testing has gone into the matter using other people's money/ cycle and things keep turning out ok.

Highlights: - cycles are same strength whether speed or slow cycles, once bacteria adhere to rocks it's done. There isn't a weak cycle or a strong one, there's only cycled or not cycled. Convention cycles are equal to 80 day wait cycles, it's how they trust keeping their best fish and costliest corals alive, they would never risk those in a weaker cycle.

- without digital ammonia testing, the readings aren't right.

- nitrite no longer factors

- you used max 7 day bac, 20+ days ago so it's all set. Take care have fun

 

[Spare time]

The Red Sea kit uses something call NOPOX (NO3O4-X, but the forum garbles it into a emoticon), which I believe is the equivalent of dosing ammonia. I just got a bottle of ammonia chloride solution with the Dr Tims bac, but haven't used any yet.

The kit had me dosing 8ml each day. I stopped when I first posted, day 9 was the last dose.

--Gray

NOPOX is a carbon source that promotes non nitrifying bacteria to grow, take in the nitrate and phosphate, and then be taken out by the skimmer.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The fact that for the vast majority of what I've read is saying those readings should be close to zero.
Just because some random dude named Randy said something doesn't make me think it's prudent to ignore the other two readings.

I resemble that remark. lol

Folks that are concerned about nitrite are carrying ideas over from freshwater systems, and they assume it is a concern here too.

It's not. Nitrite is not toxic in seawater because the 19,000 ppm chloride and 2700 ppm sulfate comepte for the bindign sites to take up the nitrite.

I show lots of toxicity info for nitrite in this article. it is really not a concern:

Nitrite and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't understand it. With this method, I have 1 and only one thing I am measuring for, Ammonia.

If there is a Nitrite spike, I'll have no idea it's happening.
If there is a Nitrate spike, I'll have no idea it's happening.

Is it "well, fish died, there must be a problem"? That seems reckless.

Let's say my kits are NOT bad, and those readings are correct. It doesn't matter at all that I have an unknown, but large, amount of NO2 and NO3?

It just seems like in this way you have no idea what is happening in your tank. And all of the examples seem to be of tanks that are set up for a weekend, not for a lifetime.

--Gray

Relax.

Neither nitrite nor nitrate are going to spike and kill fish. Ammonia will kill a marine fish.

it's fine if you want to measure nitrite. Just don't go wild worrying about low levels.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Your nitrate (NO3) seems very high for just cycling. What source water did you use to mix with salt?

How are you adding ammonia to the system? Chemical, fish food, shrimp or just organic break down from the sand?

If you have 1 ppm nitrite, that will give a false reading of 100 ppm on some nitrate kits, by design.

So it is not worth measuring nitrate at all if there is nitrite present.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@brandon429 What you've posted doesn't make any sense to me.

Are you saying I should ignore everything out there that tells me to test my water?

I may be misreading my Nitrates and Nitrites, but I don't think so. Both are the magenta/purple that is the max read on the scale, I don't see how I could be mis-reading them *under*. And the Hanna checker seems to validate at least the Nitrite, as it is reading over-scale, 200+ppb.

The Ammonia test also seems possible to be misread, but again, it looks pretty exact when I look at it.

I will take a picture of all three tests when I do it later today.



Are you saying that if you use live sand, and the other stuff, no matter what, the tank is cycled? That doesn't make any sense to me at all.



You are saying that any amount of Nitrite is fine? I know the test can be subjective, but I don't see how it can be so subjective that I mistake clear as super bright, saturated magenta.



It's never, not once, been zero. It hit it's lowest, 0.1, on day 5 then has been bouncing back up and down between 0.4 and 1.2 the whole time.

--Gray

The nitrate kit is not useful when nitrite is present.

You have the headings on your chart wrong. Nitrite and nitrate are swapped.

it is fine to wait for nitrite to decline. Patience is a virtue with reef tanks. That said, it may not be necessary.

 

[Conovan]

Today is Day 10 of my cycle. I am using the Red Sea Reef Mature system. Brand new tank, with new dry Marco (Macro?) rocks, mostly Nature's Ocean BioActive pink reef sand (the wet stuff), a little more fine Somoan Pink sand, and a couple handfuls of Florida Keys crushed coral. In addition to the Red Sea, I also added a bottle of Purple Helix at about day 2 or 3. Also have a 8x9" Brightwell Aquatics media plate in the sump. I have a skimmer, but am not running it yet.

Anyway, having never done this, I'm looking for reassurance that all is going well. According to the instructions, today's NH3 and PO2 should be 0, with Nitrate around 10. I don't see that happening.

Also, the instructions seem to think my dKH would be under 8.4, but it's only been under one time.

The brighter green marks when I swapped from the Red Sea test kit for that param, to a Hanna digital checker.

Thoughts?

Am I on the correct course? Or see anything that is obviously going badly?

Does it just take longer for pure dry rock to get cycling?

What should I expect over the next couple weeks?

--Gray

The red sea reef mature kit is designed for live rock. I used it to start with on my tank (dry rock live sand also) before I found that out so I doubt your numbers will ever line up with their instructions. Once I learned that I just dosed ammonia to bring my tank up, poured in a bottle of bacteria and waited. Had a big bacteria bloom that lasted almost a week then the numbers started looking right.

 

[brandon429]

Randy I have a statementquestion

i saw on another post you’d mentioned data in the past where natural ocean exchange rates for free ammonia were in the thousandths ppm, that happens to align with the majority of seneye machines (not all, we find outliers still and collect them for pattern tracking)

Was that in your article on ammonia in the reef tank or another location, I want to read further on natural turnover rates for nh3 conversions to next safer species of nitrogen, variation vs consistency in reef zones measured.

am looking to see if there are different reefs in nature where free ammonia is exchanging in the hundredths ppm vs thousandths, and then finally looking for the very toxic tenths ppm exchange rate to see when where how that occurs in nature


I can see how tide pools, stilled zones, eutrophic or heavy laden substrate zones might have atypical conversions rates for dangerous ammonia. Or the zone immediately surrounding a dead whale

But I bet fringing reefs, active zones water crashing on porous rock or substrate don’t vary much, and that’s like the zone we reef in. in the end my bet is reef tanks have shocking consistency of nh3 control, not inconsistency.


no ten people in reefing agree on what a sample of reef water is doing regarding ammonia nitrification during a cycle. Ive never seen a reported seneye meter show tenths ppm in any instance so far, yet tenths ppm is the expected report for api, red sea


A red sea .2 reading, again, a misread, happens daily here and his tank is not at true .2 nh3 --- patterns.

0.90 Phosphate/ 20 ammonia Please help

Good evening, so i usually do a water test every saturday around 9/10pm. this are my test results from today. Salinity 1.024 Calcium 420 Alkalinity 7.6 Mag 1720 Phosphate 0.90 —Hanna Temp 80.3 pH 7.9 Nitrate 20 Ammonia 0.2 RedSea 170 My tank has been set up for a few months now. About 2 days...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't recall the specific reference you are asking about, but this paper says the ammonia they measured in the Pacific off the US and Canada at 5 m depth averaged on average 0.45 umol/L, which is about 8 ug/L or 0.008 ppm. It varied substantially by location.

Simultaneous observations of ammonia in the atmosphere and ocean - Nature

Ammonia, being the dominant base other than sea salt in the remote marine troposphere, plays an important role in the acid–base chemistry of the atmosphere1–3. An understanding of the cycling of ammonia through the marine environment has, until now, been hampered by the lack of concurrent...

www.nature.com

 

[brandon429]

Ok reading now thank you much