Fish suddenly dying, please HELP!

[beesnreefs]

Just chiming in here - I also noticed the slightly cloudy water. For a split second that I could see the bellus, it looks severely parasitized - could be flukes, which also matches with the other tang.
Can you check the respiration rates on the remaining fish? They should for the most part be breathing less than 150 beats per minutes, and 120 would be better.
Jay

As far as I can tell no one else is breathing heavy now. HumbleFish suggested there could be two things happening here - flukes and toxins in the water. So my plan, with his suggestion, is as follows:

24 hours of carbon in the sump.
Remove carbon
Apply PraziPro and leave it in for 24-36 hours
Reapply carbon in the sump and leave it for 6 days
Remove carbon and apply PraziPro again
24-36 hours later apply carbon again

 

[MnFish1]

As far as I can tell no one else is breathing heavy now. HumbleFish suggested there could be two things happening here - flukes and toxins in the water. So my plan, with his suggestion, is as follows:

24 hours of carbon in the sump.
Remove carbon
Apply PraziPro and leave it in for 24-36 hours
Reapply carbon in the sump and leave it for 6 days
Remove carbon and apply PraziPro again
24-36 hours later apply carbon again

There are varying doses of prazipro - usually its 2 treatments 5-8 days - followed by a 3 day 'rest' - then repeat the treatment. I do not believe that 24-36 hours is enough. Additionally, IF it is a toxin, 24 hours of carbon is not enough.

So - I would recommend that you remove the carbon - and start treatment - since dying fish are the problem - and *unless you see an abnormal parameter when you check* it seems that treatment is more important.

 

[beesnreefs]

There are varying doses of prazipro - usually its 2 treatments 5-8 days - followed by a 3 day 'rest' - then repeat the treatment. I do not believe that 24-36 hours is enough. Additionally, IF it is a toxin, 24 hours of carbon is not enough.

So - I would recommend that you remove the carbon - and start treatment - since dying fish are the problem - and *unless you see an abnormal parameter when you check* it seems that treatment is more important.

@MnFish1 I'm grateful for your help with all this. I'm not sure I could enjoy this hobby without the help of people in the community like you.

HumbleFish suggested that the PraziPro works fairly quickly (within 24 hours) for adult flukes. He suggested the reason for the repeat dose 5-8 weeks later is because it will not kill the eggs....so we are dosing a second time to account for any flukes that have hatched after killing off the adults.

I'll admit I'm really torn on all this given the possible complexity of my situation.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

As far as I can tell no one else is breathing heavy now. HumbleFish suggested there could be two things happening here - flukes and toxins in the water. So my plan, with his suggestion, is as follows:

24 hours of carbon in the sump.
Remove carbon
Apply PraziPro and leave it in for 24-36 hours
Reapply carbon in the sump and leave it for 6 days
Remove carbon and apply PraziPro again
24-36 hours later apply carbon again

I agree there is some water quality issue causing the slight haze and the coral reactions, but I can’t say if carbon will help or not, depends on the core issue. Water changes always help with these issues though, no matter the cause.
You need to space the prazi treatments out to try and catch any flukes from unlatched eggs - not all flukes lay eggs, but if the species you have does, prazi doesn’t kill the eggs - you need to let the eggs hatch and kill the new flukes before they get old enough to lay eggs themselves. It isn’t an exact science, but spacing at 8 or 9 days works well.
Jay

 

[beesnreefs]

I agree there is some water quality issue causing the slight haze and the coral reactions, but I can’t say if carbon will help or not, depends on the core issue. Water changes always help with these issues though, no matter the cause.
You need to space the prazi treatments out to try and catch any flukes from unlatched eggs - not all flukes lay eggs, but if the species you have does, prazi doesn’t kill the eggs - you need to let the eggs hatch and kill the new flukes before they get old enough to lay eggs themselves. It isn’t an exact science, but spacing at 8 or 9 days works well.
Jay

Thanks @Jay Hemdal. I appreciate your help.

Two questions:

1. Do you think it's worth me running the carbon for 24 hours before starting PraziPro?
2. Are you familiar with this calculator? It suggests in my tank I'd run the second dose on day 7 (6 days after the initial dose): http://www.marineparasites.com/paratreatmentcal.html

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks @Jay Hemdal. I appreciate your help.

Two questions:

1. Do you think it's worth me running the carbon for 24 hours before starting PraziPro?
2. Are you familiar with this calculator? It suggests in my tank I'd run the second dose on day 7 (6 days after the initial dose): http://www.marineparasites.com/paratreatmentcal.html

No, I would do a partial water change and continue to try and figure out what the cloudy water is from. Most likely, it is a heterotrophic bacterial bloom and carbon won’t help with that.
That calculator is designed for Neobenedenia, and your fish more likely have Gryrodactylus flukes. I’ve also found that calculator underestimates the hatch time, but that’s just an observation/opinion.
Jay

 

[beesnreefs]

No, I would do a partial water change and continue to try and figure out what the cloudy water is from. Most likely, it is a heterotrophic bacterial bloom and carbon won’t help with that.
That calculator is designed for Neobenedenia, and your fish more likely have Gryrodactylus flukes. I’ve also found that calculator underestimates the hatch time, but that’s just an observation/opinion.
Jay

@Jay Hemdal is It ok to run the skimmer during a PraziPro treatment? Or should I shut it off?

 

[beesnreefs]

No, I would do a partial water change and continue to try and figure out what the cloudy water is from. Most likely, it is a heterotrophic bacterial bloom and carbon won’t help with that.
That calculator is designed for Neobenedenia, and your fish more likely have Gryrodactylus flukes. I’ve also found that calculator underestimates the hatch time, but that’s just an observation/opinion.
Jay

@Jay Hemdal and @MnFish1 my microscope came in. I was able to retrieve the anthias from the trash. Scrapings showed no obvious sign of anything.

I did, however, also take a sample of the snotty stuff in my tank and believe I have confirmed small-cell amphidinium dinos.

Vid 1 (25 x 10 magnification): https://youtube.com/shorts/YHQboCfAjK8?feature=share

Vid 2 (25 x 40 magnification): https://youtube.com/shorts/0LE6RDRQC_I?feature=share

You likely know much better than I but a brief scan of the internets suggests these can release toxins. It has me wondering if I've got two unrelated things going on at once:

1. A tang with obvious flukes (and possibly other fish battling the same flukes)
2. User error causing the death of some fish

As far as #2, Sunday morning I did my weekly tank maintenance. Thinking I had chrysophytes, I took a turkey baster and, with the flow on the tank totally off, blasted all the rocks and sand. I spent a good 15-20 minutes doing this. Then I did a 8% water change like I do every week. I was not running any carbon at the time either.

That evening my Royal Gramma began acting strangely. Monday morning I found him breathing heavy on the sand bed. This morning my Bellus and male Anthias persihed as well.

I wonder if I ticked off a whole bunch of SCA dinos causing an acute release of their toxins which overcame these fish.

 

[MnFish1]

@Jay Hemdal and @MnFish1 my microscope came in. I was able to retrieve the anthias from the trash. Scrapings showed no obvious sign of anything.

I did, however, also take a sample of the snotty stuff in my tank and believe I have confirmed small-cell amphidinium dinos.

Vid 1 (25 x 10 magnification): https://youtube.com/shorts/YHQboCfAjK8?feature=share

Vid 2 (25 x 40 magnification): https://youtube.com/shorts/0LE6RDRQC_I?feature=share

You likely know much better than I but a brief scan of the internets suggests these can release toxins. It has me wondering if I've got two unrelated things going on at once:

1. A tang with obvious flukes (and possibly other fish battling the same flukes)
2. User error causing the death of some fish

As far as #2, Sunday morning I did my weekly tank maintenance. Thinking I had chrysophytes, I took a turkey baster and, with the flow on the tank totally off, blasted all the rocks and sand. I spent a good 15-20 minutes doing this. Then I did a 8% water change like I do every week. I was not running any carbon at the time either.

That evening my Royal Gramma began acting strangely. Monday morning I found him breathing heavy on the sand bed. This morning my Bellus and male Anthias persihed as well.

I wonder if I ticked off a whole bunch of SCA dinos causing an acute release of their toxins which overcame these fish.

It is possible. My feeling is that a lot is blamed on Dinos - that is not Dinos - BUT your massive turkey basting might have done 'something'. I do not think it's an urgent issue now.

 

[MnFish1]

@Jay Hemdal and @MnFish1 my microscope came in. I was able to retrieve the anthias from the trash. Scrapings showed no obvious sign of anything.

I did, however, also take a sample of the snotty stuff in my tank and believe I have confirmed small-cell amphidinium dinos.

Vid 1 (25 x 10 magnification): https://youtube.com/shorts/YHQboCfAjK8?feature=share

Vid 2 (25 x 40 magnification): https://youtube.com/shorts/0LE6RDRQC_I?feature=share

You likely know much better than I but a brief scan of the internets suggests these can release toxins. It has me wondering if I've got two unrelated things going on at once:

1. A tang with obvious flukes (and possibly other fish battling the same flukes)
2. User error causing the death of some fish

As far as #2, Sunday morning I did my weekly tank maintenance. Thinking I had chrysophytes, I took a turkey baster and, with the flow on the tank totally off, blasted all the rocks and sand. I spent a good 15-20 minutes doing this. Then I did a 8% water change like I do every week. I was not running any carbon at the time either.

That evening my Royal Gramma began acting strangely. Monday morning I found him breathing heavy on the sand bed. This morning my Bellus and male Anthias persihed as well.

I wonder if I ticked off a whole bunch of SCA dinos causing an acute release of their toxins which overcame these fish.

OH - Ps. Many people do what you did - i.e. turkey baste their 'dinos' - and it doesn't cause this. So - I don't think it's user error. I think whatever source you used for your fish had some that may have had problems - or there could have been an acclimation problem causing the initial tang death Salinity/transit time, etc.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal is It ok to run the skimmer during a PraziPro treatment? Or should I shut it off?

Praziquantal and Prazipro can lower the dissolved oxygen levels in a tank. The best thing to do is run the skimmer on full, but don't collect the foam, let it go back into the tank. Not all skimmer designs allow for that though. Adding an air stone in the main tank is also a good idea.

Jay

 

[beesnreefs]

I started PraziPro today. I’m also going to add a bunch of copepods to try and help with the dinos. But for now the fish are my primary concern (even though I’ve got a torch on it’s way out now)

 

[beesnreefs]

Update - after two days of PraziPro I can see a distinct improvement in the demeanor of my fish. Not seeing anymore flashing, noticeably less bumps and black spots on the bristletooth tang, and everyone is active and eating well. What really has me happy is I haven’t had anymore fish loss.

So grateful for the guidance and help from people like @MnFish1 and @Jay Hemdal.

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[beesnreefs]

@Jay Hemdal can you help me understand when to do the second PraziPro dose for flukes? I think you suggested “after 8 days” after first dose. To be clear, if the first dose is Day 1 is it on Day 8 (the 8th day) or on Day 9 (Day 1 + 8 days) for the second dose?

Also, how long should I leave the second dose in the system before I can apply carbon.

Thanks!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal can you help me understand when to do the second PraziPro dose for flukes? I think you suggested “after 8 days” after first dose. To be clear, if the first dose is Day 1 is it on Day 8 (the 8th day) or on Day 9 (Day 1 + 8 days) for the second dose?

Also, how long should I leave the second dose in the system before I can apply carbon.

Thanks!

The timing is a bit of a guess, you need to let the fluke eggs hatch out and attach on the fish, but don’t let them have enough time to lay eggs again, else you won’t break the cycle. 8 or 9 days after the first dose is when I like to do the second dose. Some people go with 7. If you dose at noon on a Monday, then you would redose noon on Tuesday or Wednesday the following week. I also like to do a 25% water change right before the second dose. You can use carbon or run a skimmer 24 hours after the second dose.
Jay

 

[beesnreefs]

The timing is a bit of a guess, you need to let the fluke eggs hatch out and attach on the fish, but don’t let them have enough time to lay eggs again, else you won’t break the cycle. 8 or 9 days after the first dose is when I like to do the second dose. Some people go with 7. If you dose at noon on a Monday, then you would redose noon on Tuesday or Wednesday the following week. I also like to do a 25% water change right before the second dose. You can use carbon or run a skimmer 24 hours after the second dose.
Jay

Thank you! I’ll do 8 days - I first doses this past Tuesday so I’ll do dose #2 this coming Wednesday

 

[beesnreefs]

@Jay Hemdal its only been 5 days since my first dose of PraziPro but I’m noticing a couple of fish flashing again today (in particular my Midas blenny and radiant wrasse). My bristletooth tang doesn’t appear to have any black spots anymore, and is eating, but is acting a bit agitated today.

Do I still wait until 7-8 days to re-dose? Would it be worth doing my second dose today? Should I consider a third dose?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal its only been 5 days since my first dose of PraziPro but I’m noticing a couple of fish flashing again today (in particular my Midas blenny and radiant wrasse). My bristletooth tang doesn’t appear to have any black spots anymore, and is eating, but is acting a bit agitated today.

Do I still wait until 7-8 days to re-dose? Would it be worth doing my second dose today? Should I consider a third dose?

You could dose again now, but I would do a third dose as well..
Jay

 

[beesnreefs]

You could dose again now, but I would do a third dose as well..
Jay

Thanks @Jay Hemdal. I dozed again today and plan to doze a third time on Tuesday which would be Day 7

 

[beesnreefs]

@Jay Hemdal, would love your thoughts here. I'm seeing so much improvement in my tank. And, I'm seeing some oddities with my Midas Blenny.

Quick recap...

• Noticed black ich on my bristeltooth tang about 2 weeks ago. He was also noticeably paler in color, not as active, not interested in food.
• Was finally able to secure PraziPro beginning of last week. Dosed just over 2 ounces (55 mL) on Tuesday, 11/22 to my 225g system (which is probably less than 225 gallons when accounting for rock, sand, and equipment in it). We can call this Day 1.
• Had planned to do a second dose on Day 8 but could see a few fish flashing so dosed another 55 mL on Sunday, 11/27 (Day 6).
• Dosed a third dose yesterday (Day 8).

I have seen significant improvement in the tank. The tang does not have any visible flukes on it anymore although there are marks on his body where some flukes used to be. However, it appears those spots are healing. His attitude has improved significantly and he is actively eating and cleaning the rock/back wall.

The wrasses that were flashing are no longer flashing. All the other fish are more active and present in the water column...prior to starting this most of them were harassing my red shrimp asking to be cleaned almost non-stop. They could care less about the shrimp now. Everyone seems to have a good appetite.

My Midas Blenny has been....odd. He had been spending quite a bit of time at the top of the water column through this adventure. I never saw him gasping for air and he readily devoured food. It didn't appear to me like he was breathing particularly heavy, but it was noticeably odd behavior. Additionally, he was one of the fish who was routinely flashing the rocks and sand.

Today he is not swimming at the top of the water, rather he's more active in the middle. He ate this morning like normal. However, I noticed two odd things - (1) he doesn't seem to be using his right pectoral fin and (2) I can see little white things attached to his body which I hadn't really noticed before. Here's a little video I just took of him:



I do not see the white things on any other fish and everyone else seems happier than they have been in two weeks.

A bit of background on the Blenny...my LFS have adopted the HumbleFish 30-day prophylactic QT method. He went through the entire thing including copper and prazi. All of my fish other than the Blenny have come from QT vendors like TSM Aquatics, Dr Reef, and Strikers though I suspect a naso tang from TSM brought the flukes with him (he died 5 days after arrival and less than 2 weeks later my bristletooth developed the black ich).

Anyway, what do you think?