Flukes, advice on HT procedure

[Claus84]

As a bit of an update I started feeding metro a couple of days but have only just dosed prazipro as I kept getting slight ammonia readings in my qt and low pH so I have waited till today, post water change to dose. I've read a few nightmare stories of heavily infested fish bleeding out from flukes leaving the body so I was wondering if there would be any benefit to doing a half dose for the first treatment so it's a bit more gentle on the fish, would it still be effective to some degree or should I just put it all in at once? I have added 2.5ml to my 75l tank so far out of a 5ml suggested dose.

From the info I can gather it may take a day or two for the flukes to start dieing off and the problem is I am working away all week as of tomorrow so if any fish suddenly have a turn there will be little I can do immediately to help them. My Wife will let me know and I've given the LFS a key so they can come and wc in the event of an emergency but it's not the same as being here myself to observe.

Thanks

 

[aykwm]

You can always FW dip them to get as much fluke out as possible. Then you can start treating with prazipro at full dosage for the left that might have slipped away through the process. I think you have to dose the full amount specified for it to work, similar to other medications, below the required level it won't be enough to kill the worms. Also prazipro will completely break down within 4-5 days, so dosing it slowly over period of days might not get you the desired dosage.

 

[Claus84]

Thanks, I have a dip mixing just adjusting the pH. Do you know how quickly prazi gets to work? ie if I'm going to have a problem would I know already, I completed the full dose around an hour ago.

 

[aykwm]

It usually takes 24 hours to take its full course. Just be sure to provide plenty of aeration and oxygen since prazipro depletes oxygen in water. Probably this is why you hear nightmares about it.

 

[Claus84]

Good to know, I'll monitor throughout the day. I've got 2 filters aimed at the surface with venturi airlines heading out of the window and a wq probe reading around 78% saturation at the moment so should hopefully be okay but will keep an eye on it.

Thanks

Nick

 

[Claus84]

Hmm so I have just fw dipped the coral beauty for 5 mins and besides a little bit of stringy feces nothing has appeared in the tub so I am feeling a bit stumped now. If the fish had gill flukes and not external flukes would these also show during a dip?

In the week that the fish has been in quarantine there have been no more marks on her head, making me think that this could well just have been abrasion from squeezing through rocks in the DT, or possibly flashing that I have not noticed. She has continued to breathe fairly rapidly (maybe 3 times/second) but remains active and is never gasping at the surface, I noticed yesterday she flashed her operculum on a pipe in the QT but does not seem to do it with much regularity. The colour on her face still looks a bit washed out to me but I'm not sure if this is just a natural change as she grows, she was 1" when I got her and was a deeper blue on the head, she is now around 2.5", the colour on the rest of her body is still the same as ever, fairly bright and vibrant.

Could intestinal parasites alone cause any of the above or is it possible there is something else at work that I haven't considered? I've attached a photo of stringy feces (sorry!) that I pulled out of the QT, this may not be from the angel, possibly the clowns but it all looks the same, stringy but not white.

Thanks again, I may just be being paranoid but am keen to cover all my bases!

 

[melypr1985]

If the fish had gill flukes and not external flukes would these also show during a dip?

Yes, they would have shown. The poop looks pretty normal to me. It's not the white and stringy that we reference when talking about intestinal worms.

 

[Claus84]

Yes, they would have shown. The poop looks pretty normal to me. It's not the white and stringy that we reference when talking about intestinal worms.

So if isn't flukes or internal worms then am I just being paranoid or could there be other possibilities? I've attached a few photo's, couldn't get any decent underwater shots so had to catch her, you can just make out a pale mark under her eye on the 1st image which seems to have appeared post fw dip, I also noticed that her pectoral fins are slightly frayed at the edge with a little bit of fin rot like fuzziness but I could only really notice this using red light once back in the tank. I'm at a loss really, it seems like something is wrong but I can't place it, these are the same symptoms that have appeared on and off for a while now alongside the fast respiration, could it be a bacterial issue maybe?

 

[aykwm]

Its looks healthy to me other than what seem to be bacterial infection near the tail. This on and off issue might be bacterial infection that the fish is fighting but then returns back. I would suggest dosing metroplex and kanaplex in food along with focus to bind the medication to food. The pale color past the FW dip is just a stress mark and nothing you should worry about.

 

[Claus84]

Thanks I had literally just remembered the bacterial issue had been mentioned earlier in the thread!

The torn fins may be a bacterial thing, same with the face marks on the coral beauty. I too would like to see a photo if possible. For now, I would soak their food in a vitamin and/or selcon as well, to help boost the immune system

I have some kanaplex ordered but it won't arrive for a week or two yet unfortunately, is there anything in general that causes bacterial infections? I feed a fairly varied diet and aside from the occasional argument with the clown there is no reason I can see that the fish should be stressed in the DT.

How would this effect the fallow period, i'm assuming the bacteria will always be present no matter what?

Thanks

Nick

 

[aykwm]

You dont need to worry about bacterial infection, although you still need to treat it, it can be treated in tank or QT, there is no fallow period for bacterial infections. Bacteria is always present, but infection might occur due to injury or other similar factors. You can feed high quality food or add vitamins (like selcon) and hopefully the fish will fight it on its own until you get the medications.

There are many stress factors, aggression between fish, tank size, lack of hiding spots, water parameters and so on. Long exposure to stress is not good for fish, but anyways quarantine is usually few weeks and its for the benefit of the fish.

 

[Claus84]

You dont need to worry about bacterial infection, although you still need to treat it, it can be treated in tank or QT, there is no fallow period for bacterial infections. Bacteria is always present, but infection might occur due to injury or other similar factors. You can feed high quality food or add vitamins (like selcon) and hopefully the fish will fight it on its own until you get the medications.

There are many stress factors, aggression between fish, tank size, lack of hiding spots, water parameters and so on. Long exposure to stress is not good for fish, but anyways quarantine is usually few weeks and its for the benefit of the fish.

Well compared to the alternatives I guess that's good news, makes me wonder if the rapid respiration is just normal for such a small, active fish or possibly another side-effect, either way I will treat with kana in QT when it arrives and keep feeding metro in the meantime. I guess this means its probably safe to put my mandarin back in the DT too if flukes or other parasites are not the issue, which will be a big load off my mind.

Thanks for the help

 

[ngoodermuth]

Antibiotics are needed for stubborn gram-positive(usually occurs after injury, parasites, or aggression with established fish) and gram-negative (fast-moving, lethal infection that usually comes in with a new fish). Gram-positives are more likely to pop-up after an injury, but also more likely to heal on their own with good nutrition, clean water, and low-stress (i.e. Remove parasites, aggressive fish, etc) Gram-negative are more aggressive and usually present during quarantine.

 

[aykwm]

Repid breathing still worries me. Do you have airstone or enough flow to oxygenate the water. Also what temperature is the tank at, high temperature = low oxygen. Usually it indicates velvet or flukes but none of your fish shows this symptoms, hopefully nothing to worry about

 

[Claus84]

Repid breathing still worries me. Do you have airstone or enough flow to oxygenate the water. Also what temperature is the tank at, high temperature = low oxygen. Usually it indicates velvet or flukes but none of your fish shows this symptoms, hopefully nothing to worry about

Yeah I keep an aquarium log and have access to a YSI multi parameter probe so I measure O2 regularly, DT is usually in the low 80's and the quarantine has been mid 70's, that's in % saturation so should be plenty high enough in theory. DT has 2 gyres on opposing cycles plus skimmer, overflow etc and the QT has 2 filters aimed at the surface with the venturi line outside the window to bring in fresh air. I'll keep the angel in QT for observation for a while yet to make sure nothing more sinister reveals itself.

 

[melypr1985]

Yes, the rapid breathing is the only thing that truly concerns me at this point. The fish really does look healthy otherwise. I also agree that the bacterial infection is probably being fought off by the fish's immune system but not completely so it comes back on occasion. Kanaplex sould help the fish knock it out for good.

 

[Claus84]

Hi all, just a quick update and couple of follow-up questions if you don't mind. The fish have been in QT for just over 2 weeks and I am now on my 10th day feeding metroplex twice/day, I was planning to keep this up for another 4 days and then start feeding kanaplex for 5 days (I know I can mix them but figured I may as well just tack it on to the end given i'm planning to stop metro in a few days anyway).

Unfortuntely I had an ammonia spike a day after dosing prazipro so I had to do several large water changes likley removing most, if not all of the med in the process, knowing now that the angel at least is free of flukes as confirmed by the fw dip is there any need for me to re-dose prazi or would the metro/kana plan suffice? (the filters have now caught up with the bioload so no more spikes!)

I released the mandarin back into my DT yesterday so I can be sure to keep him fat and was hoping to phase the banggai and clowns back in after finishing the metro/kana feeding, depending on whether I need to dose prazi. I'll be taking my time re-introducing the coral beauty as my plan is to add the flame angel to the coral beautys QT tank so I can see if they get along in a relatively controlled environment before they go in the DT.

Thanks again

Nick

 

[Humblefish]

Unfortuntely I had an ammonia spike a day after dosing prazipro so I had to do several large water changes likley removing most, if not all of the med in the process, knowing now that the angel at least is free of flukes as confirmed by the fw dip is there any need for me to re-dose prazi or would the metro/kana plan suffice? (the filters have now caught up with the bioload so no more spikes!)

If Prazipro has only been dosed once, I would dose again 5-7 days later. While the flukes themselves may be gone, it's possible hatchlings will emerge from any eggs the adult worms left behind and you will need to do a second round of treatment to zap those little buggers before they can reach sexual maturity.

 

[Claus84]

If Prazipro has only been dosed once, I would dose again 5-7 days later. While the flukes themselves may be gone, it's possible hatchlings will emerge from any eggs the adult worms left behind and you will need to do a second round of treatment to zap those little buggers before they can reach sexual maturity.

I actually dipped the angel within around an hour of dosing the prazi, as I was paranoid that if it was a heavy infestation I should maybe thin it out first so I (perhaps mistakenly) took the lack of flukes in the dip to mean that non were present to begin with, would the prazi have acted that quickly? I only ask the mandarin went back to the DT after only a 2 week fallow period when I assumed that flukes were not the issue I was dealing with.

I will for sure run another round of prazi to be safe but I'm a bit concerned I might have jumped the gun with the mandarin now!

Thanks

 

[aykwm]

I actually dipped the angel within around an hour of dosing the prazi, as I was paranoid that if it was a heavy infestation I should maybe thin it out first so I (perhaps mistakenly) took the lack of flukes in the dip to mean that non were present to begin with, would the prazi have acted that quickly? I only ask the mandarin went back to the DT after only a 2 week fallow period when I assumed that flukes were not the issue I was dealing with.

I will for sure run another round of prazi to be safe but I'm a bit concerned I might have jumped the gun with the mandarin now!

Thanks

Hopefully no flukes is there to begin with, but yes run another round of prazi just to be on the safe side. Also prazipro is safe to dose in tank except for ornamental worms (like feather dusters) so if you discover flukes in tank and you don't worry about the worms in the tank then dose it directly there.