Flukes and medication

[hrdneglcry]

Another question. On prazipros site it says to turn off the skimmer and the UV sterlizer. It says failure to do so will render product ineffective. I know the UV sterlizer would render it uneffective. But it says sterilizer and UV in the same sentence. So thats a bummer if true because I did not shut the skimmer off. Prazipro says not to use with other medication. Pimafix is not an antibiotic. I had to move the fish to a 10 gallon because a fungus popped up on his gill. Not sure if I should put the prazipro in there. Pimafix is all herbal. Worried now that the skimmer didn't let the Prazipro work. But I many gave said don't worry.

 

[threebuoys]

I believe the instructions make it clear that the protein skimmer may compromise the effectiveness of prazipro.

I doubt you will be able to find much data on the interaction of prazipro and pimafix. As a herbal tonic, pimafix will be difficult to confirm as a reliable treatment. I personally stay away from herbal medications or additives which have undocumented or unreported components. Some believe the words "herbal" or "natural" means safer. My skepticism leads me to believe it means snake oil.

 

[hrdneglcry]

I have used prazi in a mixed reef without issue. It is a fairly specific medication, and when dosed appropriately, should not hurt anything besides trematodes and cestodes (flukes and tapeworms). Dosing my reef didn't even effect my feather duster worm population.

If you have flukes that are resistant to praziquantel, formalin baths are very effective at eradicating flukes, but are definitely not reef safe, and need to be done while transferring the fish to a quarantine, then the tank sits fallow.

Where can I get the formalin medication to dip the fish?

 

[Fishfreak2009]

Where can I get the formalin medication to dip the fish?

Amazon sells 37% formalin, which would then need to be diluted appropriately.

 

[hrdneglcry]

May I ask.......and I am becoming concerned? I did first freshwater dip on Sunday. Second was Tuesday. I can see the flukes in the bucket. In addition to Prazipro I had to use Chemiclean for cyano because my heaters were old and the water was 84 for too long. So grouper is still near the top. Still scratching. He had some relief. I also had to dip my trigger as she is scratching her face. I can dip again tomorrow. I read that the dips don't get gill flukes is that true? Also I read that they just don't get them all. Its possible he goes right back into the tank and picks some up right away. I have Prazipro in there But I did not shut off the skimmer like they recommend. I may hit it again tomorrow with Prazipro. Its been a week. After I do a water change. This time no skimmer but air stones. My concern is that the flukes can damage the gills enough that even if cured the fish will die. So I don't think I can just wait a week for medications to work. Prati seems like my best bet as it won't kill my inverts and treats the entire tank. I may try my diatom filter. Even if I cure him in a hospital tank the main tank might be infested.

 

[Sebastiancrab]

Suggest you purchase Hydroplex to do a 10 minute saltwater dip. It is not very stressful and will kill the bugs on the fish.

 

[hrdneglcry]

Suggest you purchase Hydroplex to do a 10 minute saltwater dip. It is not very stressful and will kill the bugs on the fish.

Alright I will try to find it at store or order it.

 

[hrdneglcry]

Just had a question. The grouper isn't really scratching much or if at all. He stays by the top. I do seem him open his mouth wide so maybe he does still have them. Like he yawns. No scratching. But barley eating or not eating. Main tank has been water changed and carbon put back in. Other two are eating. He could be afraid of the Triggers. I know blue throat are supposed to be nice but my male is not so nice. And my grouper is still little. Otherwise it wouldn't be an issue. But he isn't eating. He has swam right up the the food then doesn't take it. I true grouper fashion he did hit a few pieces the other day when I thought he wasn't going to. I didn't even see it. Just saw the Triggers looking for it. He swims and seems healthy. But he is up at the top all the time and I see him yawn. So afraid of the triggers or flukes? This started after i dipped them all in a 5 gallon. Saltwater med dip for 2 hours. One of them bit him. His fin and maybe once on his body.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Just had a question. The grouper isn't really scratching much or if at all. He stays by the top. I do seem him open his mouth wide so maybe he does still have them. Like he yawns. No scratching. But barley eating or not eating. Main tank has been water changed and carbon put back in. Other two are eating. He could be afraid of the Triggers. I know blue throat are supposed to be nice but my male is not so nice. And my grouper is still little. Otherwise it wouldn't be an issue. But he isn't eating. He has swam right up the the food then doesn't take it. I true grouper fashion he did hit a few pieces the other day when I thought he wasn't going to. I didn't even see it. Just saw the Triggers looking for it. He swims and seems healthy. But he is up at the top all the time and I see him yawn. So afraid of the triggers or flukes? This started after i dipped them all in a 5 gallon. Saltwater med dip for 2 hours. One of them bit him. His fin and maybe once on his body.

It's difficult to say if the grouper is hanging near the surface because of tankmate aggression or due to some disease. That you saw one of the other fish actually bite it, I would say it is aggression. Can you move the grouper to another tank or add a divider?

Jay

 

[hrdneglcry]

It's difficult to say if the grouper is hanging near the surface because of tankmate aggression or due to some disease. That you saw one of the other fish actually bite it, I would say it is aggression. Can you more the grouper to another tank or add a divider?

Jay

Well the bites happened in a bucket. Never before. I will have to monitor. He hasn'r eaten and I wanted to catch him. I may be too late. I would try hypo if I could catch him but the not eating if it continues will be bad.

 

[hrdneglcry]

Well the bites happened in a bucket. Never before. I will have to monitor. He hasn'r eaten and I wanted to catch him. I may be too late. I would try hypo if I could catch him but the not eating if it continues will be bad.

Jay what will happen if I do nothing? I don't think I can hypo him. Prazi not workng. He did eat today but I saw him scratch and still he is by the top. I have some Prazi, Rally Pro, Hydroplex, and Cupramine. I have a ten gallon tank. Its a mess everytime I have to catch him. Will the flukes kill him? I have too many inverts to treat the main tank.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay what will happen if I do nothing? I don't think I can hypo him. Prazi not workng. He did eat today but I saw him scratch and still he is by the top. I have some Prazi, Rally Pro, Hydroplex, and Cupramine. I have a ten gallon tank. Its a mess everytime I have to catch him. Will the flukes kill him? I have too many inverts to treat the main tank.

If you saw sesame seed sized dead flukes in dip, then you are dealing with Neobenedenia. This is difficult to eradicate. Dips like Hydroplex will NOT work, because there are eggs in your tank and when you return the fish to the tank, the eggs hatch out and reinfect the fish. It has been demonstrated that a single Neobenedenia fluke can start up the infection again.

Can fish live with a sub-clinical infection? Sometimes, in large public aquariums they can. Cleaner shrimp help reduce the numbers of Neo, but of course, your grouper will likely eat them.

Here is a write-up I did on Neo:


Neobenedenia melleni (eye flukes)

These are relatively large (up to 8 mm), egg-laying worms that live on the skin or eyes of marine fishes.

Symptoms

Neobenedenia infections peak slowly; there may be no symptoms for weeks after you acquire a fish. Eventually, as the flukes multiply and grow in size, they begin to cause symptoms of disease.

The first obvious symptom may be slightly cloudy eyes, caused by the transparent fluke feeding on the eye tissue and eliciting a tissue reaction. This gives this worm the common name of “eye fluke,” although it is unknown whether these worms actually prefer to feed on eye tissue, or whether that is just where they first become apparent.

As the infection becomes more serious, the fish will “flash,” their skin color will become dull, their fins may become tattered, and they just generally get a “scruffy” look to them. Rapid breathing due to stress, possible secondary infection, and then death follow if treatment is not begun.

Diagnosis

The best means of diagnosis is to give the fish a five-minute freshwater dip. Not only does this knock back the infection by killing the adult parasites, but even a casual look at the bottom of the dip container afterwards will help to positively identify this disease. The worms turn whitish and fall to the bottom. Many aquarists mistake these for scales that were dislodged from the fish. However, looking at these “scales” under a dissecting microscope, or even a hand lens, will soon show them for what they are—dead worms.

Sometimes a fish’s history can help diagnosis at least the potential for this disease. Angelfishes and butterflyfishes are especially prone to Neobenedenia infections, so any of these fish that have been housed at an import facility that doesn’t prophylactically treat for trematodes stand a very good chance of being infected.

Angelfish, Pomacanthus sp. ++
Barrimundi, Lates sp. ++
Batfish, Platax sp. +++
Butterflyfish, Chaetodon sp. ++
Cichlid, Tilapia sp. +++ (when housed in seawater)
Invertebrates 0 (but may carry eggs)
Jacks, Caraganidae +++
Lionfish, Pterois sp. +
Lookdowns, Selene sp. +++
Pyramid butterflyfish, Hemitaurichthys sp. +++
Grouper family, Serranidae ++
Garden eel, Taenioconger sp. +
Remora, Echeneis sp. +
Sharks and rays, Elasmobranchs 0
Surgeonfish, Acanthurus sp. ++
Spadefish, Chaetodipterus faber +++

Aquarium hosts for Neobenedenia sp. 0=not infected, + = sometimes infected, ++=commonly infected, +++=very commonly infected (From Bullard et-al 2000 and personal obs.)


Treatment

Many people suggest using a freshwater dip as a treatment for all incoming fish. The two drawbacks to this are 1) the dips are not 100% effective (and do not harm the fluke eggs) and 2) newly acquired fish often do not stand up well to the added stress of a freshwater dip when they first arrive.

Neobenedenia eggs can take 14 (or longer?) to hatch as motile larvae called oncomiracidium. Additionally, the eggs have sticky tendrils that attach them securely to all manner of objects in an aquarium. There is some merit to the idea of keeping a treatment tank free of substrate and siphoning the bottom regularly in order to remove some of these unhatched eggs. There have been reports that Lysmata cleaner shrimp feed on these eggs, rendering them non-viable. However, it is unlikely that in a normal aquarium, with many other food choices, that cleaner shrimp will markedly reduce their numbers.

Any successful treatment for these worms must be undertaken in stages. The first treatment kills off the adult worms (but this won’t kill the eggs), and the subsequent treatments kill off the juvenile worms after they have all hatched but before any of them have matured and begun to lay eggs of their own. Due to variables in timing, it is virtually impossible to accomplish this in only two treatments.

Whole-tank formalin baths at 166 ppm for one hour will eliminate the adult flukes from an aquarium but not the eggs. Because this type of treatment has no residual effect, the treatment may need to be repeated every two weeks for two or three more times. Experience in public aquarium exhibits has shown that this method rarely clears a tank completely of this pest.

A better alternative is a Praziquantel treatment at 4 ppm, followed by a 50% water change after 48 hours, then a second treatment 12 to 14 days later, followed by another 50% water change 48 hours later.

At the aquarium I was the curator at, we noticed that multiple Praziquantel treatments on the same system, over months to years, required higher and higher doses, combined with increased frequency of the treatments in order to maintain effectiveness. Eventually, the praziquantel was simply no longer effective. One supposition was that the target parasites were building an immunity to the drug. That seemed unlikely as genetic change in multi-cellular organisms typically takes longer to happen (as opposed to drug-resistant bacteria that can develop resistance in short order). We wondered then, what could be rendering Praziquantel so ineffective on repeat doses?
Subsequent research indicates that bacterial degradation of the Praziquantel (Thomas et-al, 2016) is the process at work. Their study concluded that while Praziquantel is stable for over two weeks in sterile marine aquarium water, when dosed in working systems, it degrades below detectable limits in just nine days. A subsequent dose on the same system showed a reduction in Praziquantel in less than 48 hours. The presence or absence of fish in the system did not affect this rate of degradation. The natural bacterial population of the aquarium actually works to eliminate Praziquantel from the water.

Barrett L. Christie, a public aquarium curator, has researched a variety of treatment methods and has struck upon one that is highly effective. The treatment is relatively simple; in a quarantine system, the fish are exposed to hyposalinity (low salinity) for 30 days. Exactly how low of a salinity is the variable that needs to be controlled. Some species of fish do not tolerate lower salinities, yet if the salinity is not reduced enough, the parasite population is only reduced, not eradicated. Barrett has hit upon a workable value of 17 parts per thousand, a bit less than half the salinity of normal seawater (this equates to a specific gravity of around 1.013). Using a target of 16 ppt for 35 days is better, as it ensures that any errors in salinity measurement or timing won’t affect the treatment. Obviously, most invertebrates cannot be present during this sort of treatment. Sharks and some rays cannot tolerate it either. Assuming the fish are healthy in all other respects, you begin this treatment by lowering the salinity to the target value over 24 to 48 hours. During the low salinity treatment, water quality must be monitored closely, especially pH. Be aware that some other diseases, notably Uronema and Amyloodinium thrive at lower salinities. Luckily, another common scourge, marine ich, Cryptocaryon irritans, is also inhibited by low salinity. After 35 days, the salinity is gradually raised back to normal. It is imperative to perform this change back to normal seawater very slowly. While marine fish tolerate a drop in salinity very well, their kidneys have more difficulty adjusting as the salinity is raised. Never return fish to normal salinity faster than 72 hours, and don’t make large changes at one time.


Jay

 

[ReefHog]

I thought I read that a SG of 1.011 for five days kills off the adults as well as the eggs. I actually just started today with my pink tail trigger that’s been showing symptoms of gill flukes even with the staged praziquantel treatments. If it doesn’t negatively affect him, 30 days is no big deal.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I thought I read that a SG of 1.011 for five days kills off the adults as well as the eggs. I actually just started today with my pink tail trigger that’s been showing symptoms of gill flukes even with the staged praziquantel treatments. If it doesn’t negatively affect him, 30 days is no big deal.

No, five days is too short of a length of time for Neobenedenia. The low salinity doesn't kill the eggs, just inhibits them from hatching. The eggs are known to last 14 days without hatching, and are suspected to last longer. Barrett's original treatment is 30 days, but I add an extra 5 just to be safe and to cover any issues where people start counting the days as they start to lower the salinity (instead of once they reach the full hypo level).

Gill flukes may have a different life cycle, and I can't tell you if hypo kills those eggs or not. Since I've not read any studies on them, I would go 30 days just to be safe, but if that isn't possible, 14 days would be the absolute shortest time I would risk.

Jay

 

[ReefHog]

No, five days is too short of a length of time for Neobenedenia. The low salinity doesn't kill the eggs, just inhibits them from hatching. The eggs are known to last 14 days without hatching, and are suspected to last longer. Barrett's original treatment is 30 days, but I add an extra 5 just to be safe and to cover any issues where people start counting the days as they start to lower the salinity (instead of once they reach the full hypo level).

Gill flukes may have a different life cycle, and I can't tell you if hypo kills those eggs or not. Since I've not read any studies on them, I would go 30 days just to be safe, but if that isn't possible, 14 days would be the absolute shortest time I would risk.

Jay

Definitely the gill version if that’s in fact what’s causing his breathing issues. 35 days is no problem and better safe that sorry. I imagine the lower Salinity holds a little more oxygen as well. Here he is today.

 

[hrdneglcry]

Just wanted to ask. Had the grouper in a 10. got him to eat. was treating with prazi. had some cupramine in there. he was not scratching. My main tank has triggers. No flukes on the triggers. Have had them for quite awhile now. Put the grouper back in. Scratches his face after and hour. Thought maybe the Prazi had killed the main tank flukes and that was why the Trigger's aren't getting it. I did treat the main tank. Why aren't they getting it?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Just wanted to ask. Had the grouper in a 10. got him to eat. was treating with prazi. had some cupramine in there. he was not scratching. My main tank has triggers. No flukes on the triggers. Have had them for quite awhile now. Put the grouper back in. Scratches his face after and hour. Thought maybe the Prazi had killed the main tank flukes and that was why the Trigger's aren't getting it. I did treat the main tank. Why aren't they getting it?

Groupers and triggers have different scale types. Fluke species can be specific to one type of scale or another, even one species over another. I guess I wouldn’t be too surprised to find flukes on one species but not the other.
Jay

 

[hrdneglcry]

Groupers and triggers have different scale types. Fluke species can be specific to one type of scale or another, even one species over another. I guess I wouldn’t be too surprised to find flukes on one species but not the other.
Jay

If 1.013 is 17 ppm and 16 ppm is better what is the decimal number for that?

 

[vetteguy53081]

So after jast two days it worked? The bottle says 5-7 days and one treatment usually does the trick.

For Prazi- treat for 8 days, do water change on day 9 and treat for 8 more days
Also I always recommend adding aeration with air stone as praziquantel reduces both oxygen and appetite during treatment

 

[Jay Hemdal]

If 1.013 is 17 ppm and 16 ppm is better what is the decimal number for that?

16 ppt salinity is equal to a specific gravity of around 1.012

Jay