Flukes or ich diagnosis

[lion king]

You could remove your corals and inverts to a fallow observation tank, without a blood host both would die off. Then drop your display into hypo.

 

[sawrip]

My 1st impression in your post that could be flukes, do you see them swim at the surface or into the flow of powerheads or return, this may point more to flukes. I've never had to intervene with any treatment for ich in an otherwise healthy lion, but if you are also dealing with flukes, that may complicate matters. When dealing with protozoan diseases I've always removed the lion from the infected tank into a pristine observation tank and maintained or included live food, in your case again, more complicated having multiple scorps. For treatment options, hyposalinty is the really the only option for scorps for a protozoan disease. Jay has written a good guide in the sticky portion for hypo, this must be done slowly and carefully, and ammonia must be monitored and maintained closely. As far as flukes go, that's easy, prazi pro dosed to water volume, not tank size, displacement must be considered. I usually dose 2nd dose in 5 days but others may have better recommendations, but the 2nd dose is necessary. If it is flukes you will want to treat the whole tank whether some are unaffected or not. For ich, other than what you are doing, hypo would have to administered. Respond with your thoughts for more options.

Many thanks for the detailed reply.

So both Lions are taking it in turns sitting head on into the powerheads or wedged up on the overflow box. The Rhino also seems to be in higher places during the evening to access the powerheads and all three are yawning a fair amount. The Fw dips today showed a fluke under the microscope (pic attached) which came directly off the Radiata. The bucket was fairly empty of anything else but it did get me thinking that maybe I'm not seeing the full extent of this fluke issue.

I've done hypo twice before and so I'm fairly confident managing it, but the addition of corals, inverts etc complicates things. I do have a smallish QT tank so maybe I could move everything in there and drop tank back down to hypo.

I think the best way forward here is as follows, (open to ideas as always).....

Treat with Prazi - I've identified flukes using the scope which Jay seems to confirm and yes it's a small amount but my sample is also very small, these need dealing with and it might be a very simple quick win.

Upon completion monitor and also setup qt for inverts and corals.

If not resolved with the above move everything out and drop tank to hypo as per Jay's guide.

Please let me know your thoughts.

 

[lion king]

Many thanks for the detailed reply.

So both Lions are taking it in turns sitting head on into the powerheads or wedged up on the overflow box. The Rhino also seems to be in higher places during the evening to access the powerheads and all three are yawning a fair amount. The Fw dips today showed a fluke under the microscope (pic attached) which came directly off the Radiata. The bucket was fairly empty of anything else but it did get me thinking that maybe I'm not seeing the full extent of this fluke issue.

I've done hypo twice before and so I'm fairly confident managing it, but the addition of corals, inverts etc complicates things. I do have a smallish QT tank so maybe I could move everything in there and drop tank back down to hypo.

I think the best way forward here is as follows, (open to ideas as always).....

Treat with Prazi - I've identified flukes using the scope which Jay seems to confirm and yes it's a small amount but my sample is also very small, these need dealing with and it might be a very simple quick win.

Upon completion monitor and also setup qt for inverts and corals.

If not resolved with the above move everything out and drop tank to hypo as per Jay's guide.

Please let me know your thoughts.

That's what I would do. If you didn't calculate actually water volume when setting up the tank, estimate considering displacement of rock and such, and adding in actually water volume in sump. Rhinos are not always keen to prazi, so be very careful. Aeration is important that's why Jay suggested leaving the cup off the skimmer but keep it running, it will foam up for a while right after dosing. I found splitting the prazi dose into 3rds and dosing 4 hours apart as long as there is no undue stress, that way it is easier to monitor stress levels. Labored breathing and laying on the side would be extreme stress. Have a water change ready just in case. Lions generally have no issues with prazi as long as dosed properly, not overdosed and proper aeration. I have had some extreme stress with rhinos and other scorps. To be extra safe you can split dose in half or thirds, you can spread dose over about 12 hours max but no more, as not to dilute effectiveness. 3rds in 8 hours has seem to work for me.

 

[sawrip]

That's what I would do. If you didn't calculate actually water volume when setting up the tank, estimate considering displacement of rock and such, and adding in actually water volume in sump. Rhinos are not always keen to prazi, so be very careful. Aeration is important that's why Jay suggested leaving the cup off the skimmer but keep it running, it will foam up for a while right after dosing. I found splitting the prazi dose into 3rds and dosing 4 hours apart as long as there is no undue stress, that way it is easier to monitor stress levels. Labored breathing and laying on the side would be extreme stress. Have a water change ready just in case. Lions generally have no issues with prazi as long as dosed properly, not overdosed and proper aeration. I have had some extreme stress with rhinos and other scorps. To be extra safe you can split dose in half or thirds, you can spread dose over about 12 hours max but no more, as not to dilute effectiveness. 3rds in 8 hours has seem to work for me.

This is invaluable advice, I've treated months before I've obtained my Rhino but wasn't aware of their sensitivity to Prazi. I will run both skimmers topless and an airstone in the main tank for the duration of the treatment. It seems oxygen reduction is the big one to watch with this.

I've dealt with my Rhino having an issue with Ammonia when I first got him in the QT and so I will know straight away if he starts leaning to the side - it's a key indicator of something badly wrong.

So in terms of dosing one of the safest would be 9am, 1pm and final at 5pm for the first round of treatment?

 

[lion king]

This is invaluable advice, I've treated months before I've obtained my Rhino but wasn't aware of their sensitivity to Prazi. I will run both skimmers topless and an airstone in the main tank for the duration of the treatment. It seems oxygen reduction is the big one to watch with this.

I've dealt with my Rhino having an issue with Ammonia when I first got him in the QT and so I will know straight away if he starts leaning to the side - it's a key indicator of something badly wrong.

So in terms of dosing one of the safest would be 9am, 1pm and final at 5pm for the first round of treatment?

I think the stress response I got from rhino's did have to do with oxygen reduction, with that oxygenation you should have no issue. In my experience with prazi stress I likely didn't supply enough oxygenation. The 3rds is still likely not a bad idea but may be unnecessary with the focus on oxygenation. I hate making it sound so complicated but I'm always looking for more successful and efficient methods.

 

[sawrip]

I think the stress response I got from rhino's did have to do with oxygen reduction, with that oxygenation you should have no issue. In my experience with prazi stress I likely didn't supply enough oxygenation. The 3rds is still likely not a bad idea but may be unnecessary with the focus on oxygenation. I hate making it sound so complicated but I'm always looking for more successful and efficient

Yep I'll focus on decent oxygen and ensuring I calculate the actual water in the tank to the best of my ability.

I'm very fond of my Rhino and he's become very tame with me at Molly feeding time, anything to lower the risk to him and I'm all ears, will definitely be going with the third doses and watching it closely.

Will keep this thread updated so hopefully we can see how things develop.

 

[sawrip]

Yep I'll focus on decent oxygen and ensuring I calculate the actual water in the tank to the best of my ability.

I'm very fond of my Rhino and he's become very tame with me at Molly feeding time, anything to lower the risk to him and I'm all ears, will definitely be going with the third doses and watching it closely.

Will keep this thread updated so hopefully we can see how things develop.

So update on this, things moved quickly yesterday and spots broke out on my Fu Manchu and then my Rhino started leaning to the side and yawning every few minutes, he'd have died if I didn't act.

I quickly ripped the corals out of the DT and dropped to 1.014. My baking soda dosing head has stabilised ph and Dkh.

Will drop to full hypo today, spots have already dropped off and eyes are clearing.

@Jay Hemdal, this is my third time running hypo and seem to be getting conflicting information from various sources. I see you mention four weeks, but then plenty say six or eight weeks. I don't like extended hypo due to skimmers and filtration taking a hit. Just wanted to know your thoughts on why four weeks?

 

[sawrip]

Update on this, I've included photos of my Fu Manchu before hypo and the Antanana Lion after. Notice the jet black and clear eyes, lovely to see.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So update on this, things moved quickly yesterday and spots broke out on my Fu Manchu and then my Rhino started leaning to the side and yawning every few minutes, he'd have died if I didn't act.

I quickly ripped the corals out of the DT and dropped to 1.014. My baking soda dosing head has stabilised ph and Dkh.

Will drop to full hypo today, spots have already dropped off and eyes are clearing.

@Jay Hemdal, this is my third time running hypo and seem to be getting conflicting information from various sources. I see you mention four weeks, but then plenty say six or eight weeks. I don't like extended hypo due to skimmers and filtration taking a hit. Just wanted to know your thoughts on why four weeks?

Hypo should be run for four weeks beyond when the fish’s symptoms subside. This can easily be 6 weeks for ich, it is usually 4 weeks for Neobenedenia flukes.

While I don’t think this is the problem here, remember that both Amyloodinium (velvet) and Uronema thrive during hypo.

For Cryptocaryon/ich you need to hit exactly 1.009 specific gravity. I test with multiple accurate devices to confirm that.

Jay

 

[lion king]

Wow, so glad you are experienced enough to pull it off.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Update on this, I've included photos of my Fu Manchu before hypo and the Antanana Lion after. Notice the jet black and clear eyes, lovely to see.

With that quick of an improvement seen, I wonder if ich was the primary issue of the cloudy eyes? Hypo generally takes 3 to 5 days to begin to improve ich.

In any event, take what improvements you can get!

Jay

 

[sawrip]

Hypo should be run for four weeks beyond when the fish’s symptoms subside. This can easily be 6 weeks for ich, it is usually 4 weeks for Neobenedenia flukes.

While I don’t think this is the problem here, remember that both Amyloodinium (velvet) and Uronema thrive during hypo.

For Cryptocaryon/ich you need to hit exactly 1.009 specific gravity. I test with multiple accurate devices to confirm that.

Jay

Thanks Jay, I've read you're guide and following that again just to ensure I've missed nothing. I fully understand that it's only Flukes or Ich that this will treat. Judging by the very quick improvement I would say it's definitely hit one of them, tanks currently 1.011 and I'll drop to final SG tomorrow.

I've purchased a new Redsea calibrated refractometer and also use my old one to ensure they are hitting the required value. My Apex is actually surprisingly accurate at low salt levels and so although not a reference point it's easy to see any slight swings with it, I check daily as well.

I tend to run ozone with ORP monitor for the first week or so just to reduce the risk of Ammonia along with daily testing and Seachem badge. All inverts, corals and such like are in a fallow QT, would you say 74 days to be sure?

 

[sawrip]

With that quick of an improvement seen, I wonder if ich was the primary issue of the cloudy eyes? Hypo generally takes 3 to 5 days to begin to improve ich.

In any event, take what improvements you can get

It does make me wonder but I have noticed a few spots left on the Radiatas fin. Would flukes be a very quick die off with hypo vs a few days with ich?

 

[sawrip]

Wow, so glad you are experienced enough to pull it off.

The first time was so stressful and difficult but now I have a feel for the process and it's not too bad. I sleep much better at night knowing I haven't dumped chemicals into the tank. I trust your judgement with copper and the early demise of Rhino's, eels etc.
Having done this a few times (zero loses) it seems Lions and Scorps cope quite well with it, they always look healthy and have massive appetites during hypo. I tend to go light on the feeding in the first week to allow the filters to adapt.

 

[lion king]

The first time was so stressful and difficult but now I have a feel for the process and it's not too bad. I sleep much better at night knowing I haven't dumped chemicals into the tank. I trust your judgement with copper and the early demise of Rhino's, eels etc.
Having done this a few times (zero loses) it seems Lions and Scorps cope quite well with it, they always look healthy and have massive appetites during hypo. I tend to go light on the feeding in the first week to allow the filters to adapt.

Definitely sounds like you have it in hand. Monitoring ammonia closely and light feeding good points. Flukes would drop off quickly and they may have advanced to dramatically affecting the gills. Is does make it more complicated if you have a double whammy including ich. Hypo should take care of both.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It does make me wonder but I have noticed a few spots left on the Radiatas fin. Would flukes be a very quick die off with hypo vs a few days with ich?

Yes - hypo causes flukes to drop off in hours. With ich, the trophonts are down in the skin/mucus, so it takes a few days for the trophonts to drop off. The swimming tomites are killed by the hypo, so new trophonts don’t develop.

Jay

 

[sawrip]

Yes - hypo causes flukes to drop off in hours. With ich, the trophonts are down in the skin/mucus, so it takes a few days for the trophonts to drop off. The swimming tomites are killed by the hypo, so new trophonts don’t develop.

Jay

Makes me really think I've had a nasty combination of both going on at the same time. Hyposalinity has both bases now covered thank goodness and definitely saved my Rhino and Fumanchu.

Once treatment fully starts I am going to sterlize any damp kit and ensure that bio hygiene is as good as can be moving forward.

Would you say 74 days is a good amount of time for my corals and inverts in the fishless QT before slowly moving back to the DT?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Makes me really think I've had a nasty combination of both going on at the same time. Hyposalinity has both bases now covered thank goodness and definitely saved my Rhino and Fumanchu.

Once treatment fully starts I am going to sterlize any damp kit and ensure that bio hygiene is as good as can be moving forward.

Would you say 74 days is a good amount of time for my corals and inverts in the fishless QT before slowly moving back to the DT?

Yes - the longest fallow period described for ich is 76 days. This was in a lab test. Real life testing shows that at tropical temperatures, 60 days is enough. Fluke eggs hatch and die out if no hosts in less than 30 days.
Jay

 

[sawrip]

Hypo should be run for four weeks beyond when the fish’s symptoms subside. This can easily be 6 weeks for ich, it is usually 4 weeks for Neobenedenia flukes.

While I don’t think this is the problem here, remember that both Amyloodinium (velvet) and Uronema thrive during hypo.

For Cryptocaryon/ich you need to hit exactly 1.009 specific gravity. I test with multiple accurate devices to confirm that.

Jay

Hi Jay,

I just wish to express my thanks for this reminder. I purchased some Two Little Fishes 35ppt solution and tested it on my Redsea refractometer and it was way off. My second refractometer was also slightly off. This has meant that I have been keeping my tank at 1.007.

I've purchased an additional Fritz calibration solution to ensure it aligns with the TLF solution and also a new Milwaukee digital refractometer. I will calibrate and cross reference all three devices to ensure I'm hitting the correct target.

The Redsea promised factory calibration out of the box but this is most definitely not the case when trying to dial in hypo.

 

[sawrip]

So have been running hyposalinity now for over a week and have had no ammonia spikes and all fish seem healthy. Eyes have cleared and Starry Blenny is no longer flashing. Can I ask you @Jay Hemdal about the final spots which are remaining on my Radiata Lionfishes fin please? Are these marks where the parasite has been feeding and will take a little longer to heal, or parasites which are not impacted by the hyposalinity thus far? How long would you expect these to hang around for?