For those that don’t QT, why not

[Paul B]

I’ve used coppersafe on thousands of fish and have not lost any to copper toxicity. Ionic copper is a different situation, quicker to work, but much trickier to use.

Jay, I wasn't referring to copper toxicity. As you know we kept fish in copper constantly when the hobby started as we knew nothing else and our tanks were not set up for optimum health. Copper saved a lot of fishes lives.

I am talking about copper killing the gut bacteria which will almost totally destroy the fishes immunity which will affect it's lifespan.

Of course sometimes we have to use it for a severe case of parasites that we may buy a fish with, but if your tank is set up correctly and the fish are fed correctly, our existing fish should never be in that situation.

Just my opinion and my fish "never" need it.
I am not sure why there is so much disease problems with this hobby and Old Salts never have them.

 

[MnFish1]

Jay, I wasn't referring to copper toxicity. As you know we kept fish in copper constantly when the hobby started as we knew nothing else and our tanks were not set up for optimum health. Copper saved a lot of fishes lives.

I am talking about copper killing the gut bacteria which will almost totally destroy the fishes immunity which will affect it's lifespan.

Of course sometimes we have to use it for a severe case of parasites that we may buy a fish with, but if your tank is set up correctly and the fish are fed correctly, our existing fish should never be in that situation.

Just my opinion and my fish "never" need it.
I am not sure why there is so much disease problems with this hobby and Old Salts never have them.

I think it's the stocking density that many people rush to do - now, whereas the 'old salts' perhaps do not rush so much.

There is evidence (I thought) that suggests that copper can affect the immune system - I do not think there is evidence that copper 'kills all the gut bacteria' - if it did - then - I don't understand why it would be useful (as you suggest) for fish with significant parasitic infections?

 

[Weeb]

I just posted on another thread why the old 14 day copper regimen should not be used:

14 days is just not long enough. Copper does not kill the resting tomonts. When you do a 14 day copper treatment and then pull the copper, there is a good chance that these surviving tomonts will arise and reinfect the fish. 30 days is the minimum time for coppersafe or copper power. For fish with active infections, that is 30 days beyond the date you last saw symptoms.

The 14 days value comes from the old ionic copper products. They are more toxic, so people try to minimize the length of time with those treatments. Even then, the standard was 21 days. With that short of a period, you will however, need to move the fish to a new tank on day 15, while it is still in copper, to try and avoid the resting tomonts.

Jay

And, as I've written elsewhere, I don't 'pull the copper.' I move the fish from the copper to a non-copper 'clean' observation tank. No tomonts in the observation tank.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

And, as I've written elsewhere, I don't 'pull the copper.' I move the fish from the copper to a non-copper 'clean' observation tank. No tomonts in the observation tank.

But the core issue is that very few people have a stable second tank to move fish into (in fact, most do not even have a primary treatment tank). Therefore, it is best to advise that people perform a FULL copper treatment, and not cut corners.

With Coppersafe and Copper Power being so safe, there is no compelling reason to cut the treatment short.


Jay

 

[Weeb]

most do not even have a primary treatment tank)

Then regardless of the number of days -- a hobbyist without a primary quantine tank has no (dis)advantage.

have a stable second tank to move fish into

I know. Those $30 10-gallon aquarium kits are sooo expensive. Stable? Seed the filter with $6. nitrifying bacteria, add drops of $6 Ammonium chloride solution and when ammonia is "0.0" it is 'stable.' This bio filter can be kept alive, and/or grown adding ammonium chloride in this method for years. The costs are initial startup costs.

Jay,
I decided for myself quite some time ago to do it this way. Cuts down on copper stress and moves the fish into the DT within a reasonable amount of time. I always have at least one ready aquarium. I'm not against a 30+ day copper treatment in one tank, but it's just not necessary. I thought with your knowledge and experience that you'd be at least open to an alternative.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Then regardless of the number of days -- a hobbyist without a primary quantine tank has no (dis)advantage.

I know. Those $30 10-gallon aquarium kits are sooo expensive. Stable? Seed the filter with $6. nitrifying bacteria, add drops of $6 Ammonium chloride solution and when ammonia is "0.0" it is 'stable.' This bio filter can be kept alive, and/or grown adding ammonium chloride in this method for years. The costs are initial startup costs.

Jay,
I decided for myself quite some time ago to do it this way. Cuts down on copper stress and moves the fish into the DT within a reasonable amount of time. I always have at least one ready aquarium. I'm not against a 30+ day copper treatment in one tank, but it's just not necessary. I thought with your knowledge and experience that you'd be at least open to an alternative.

Sorry, I've had decades of experience with Coppersafe (40+ years, going back when it was a Mardel product), and I will continue to advocate for its proper usage.

The issue is that people will sometimes selectively read what they want to see - and when you post "14 days of copper is fine" they will often embrace that because it is easier and faster, not because it is better....and that is a mistake.

I need to ensure that people get the best information on R2R.

Jay

 

[Weeb]

Sorry, I've had decades of experience with Coppersafe (40+ years, going back when it was a Mardel product), and I will continue to advocate for its proper usage.

The issue is that people will sometimes selectively read what they want to see - and when you post "14 days of copper is fine" they will often embrace that because it is easier and faster, not because it is better....and that is a mistake.

I need to ensure that people get the best information on R2R.

Jay

The 'devil' is in the details. Just as when a 30+ day copper treatment is recommended, there are several details that must be followed. It's the same with the 14-day treatment -- there are details to embrace.

I only have 54 years (since 1968) keeping ornamental marine fishes and inverts; worked and studied with Dr. Edward Noga, imported marine fishes, and managed an LFS, so you'll have to forgive my 'shallow background' on keeping and treating marine animals.

 

[MnFish1]

The 'devil' is in the details. Just as when a 30+ day copper treatment is recommended, there are several details that must be followed. It's the same with the 14-day treatment -- there are details to embrace.

I only have 54 years (since 1968) keeping ornamental marine fishes and inverts; worked and studied with Dr. Edward Noga, imported marine fishes, and managed an LFS, so you'll have to forgive my 'shallow background' on keeping and treating marine animals.

I think you're being oversensitive - with much respect to your experience.I've had a lot of experience over the years and experiences have changed - I'm not sure I would believe Noga at this point (No offense to anyone)

 

[Wildreefs]

I see no value in creating an environment that is not like the one it will live in.

So if a person comes into a country with some type of virus, well isolation i treatment in a white sheet rocked room with no windows isn’t natural, best to just let them into society and go from there?

 

[Weeb]

being oversensitive -

Not true. Sensitivity isn't an issue -- it's a matter of a different, successful alternative.

 

[Weeb]

experiences have changed

I don't think experiences have changed -- it's knowledge that has changed.

 

[jmoney7]

This is just what I have noticed from browsing the forums and personal experience I honestly only keep one fish because I like coral more. sure maybe it’s boring but my rescued clown is 13 years old now I got him from a friend who quit the hobby and he has always been healthy....there are a few people who are successful QTing fish but for the past couple months I see more people kill probably healthy fish by putting multiple fish in tiny tanks with no biological filtration and loading them with meds when they have no signs of disease. Sure if a fish gets sick setup a med tank and prepare for daily water changes or prepare to euthanize but otherwise I think we are just increasing the cost of ornamental fish killing them in QT. The whole process is silly to me since we know the biological cycle and the amount of filtration mass these tanks need to sustain healthy fish. Hardly anyone follows that same cycle for a QT setup. Healthy fish fight parasites and disease daily ....so do healthy humans and we don’t medicate people because they might have a parasite or disease we make sure they have it via scientific tests and medicate appropriately. This is how all living species should be treated but that is just my opinion take it with a grain of salt no pun intended.

Clownfish are really good at fighting off diseases however others are not so good my clowns have fought ich and internal parasites twice with no problem no medication. Honestly if you do qt and prevent this stuff getting in your main tank before the only fish that die in qt are normally just really sick fish. If they are healthy they will make it through as long as you qt right with good bio filtration so the fish don’t die of ammonia and you don’t have to much aggression should go as planned and your fish should live a long no parasite or disease life after that.