For those that don’t QT, why not

[KrisReef]

Of course there was not an answer to the OP question -

For those that don’t QT, why not​

I have noticed that sliding off topic is a natural part of the progression of many threads, just like my own comment thus far

I received a Koi in the mail that had an open wound on one side. The fish were for a friend’s pond so I set up a giant tank added foam filters and made a holding pond to qt/ heal the little fish. I looked on here and found some recommendations for a general cure and after the fish were settled in I netted them from there pond and did a 10 gallon soak for 30 minutes and put them back into the qt pond. I repeated the treatment and kept the patient alive (after I was told that it would likely die. I don’t normally buy fish online so usually I don’t bring home fishes with open wounds.
I did buy a harlequin tusk in a hurry that had a wound but I dumped him in the reef and fed the tank fresh chopped live foods and a week later without meds he was healing and I still have the fish a few years now. I don’t qt because I try to keep the tanks running clean and feed well and injured or spotty fishes generally respond well and live.
The koi tank was an instant set up because I can’t give a buddy a sick fish. I still have them months later but when the water warms up I will give them to him with a long qt to insure that I don’t create an issue with his other ones.

I don’t qt because I don’t need to.

 

[Jacked Reefer]

The fish ain’t medicated in the wild. Give it space. Feed it well, give it space, limit aggression and you shouldn’t have any issues. Immune system will do the job (sans internal parasites. I DO treat for those)

 

[sfin52]

I was asking Sfin... Because I already know your rationale. It's also the rationale of 50-60 percent of the people on R2R. So it's hard to argue. Unless people are underreporting their losses (which is why I specifically said not you @Paul B ). There has to be a reason that multiple people have success with QT - and others fail without QT - and vice versa. EDIT - I meant - 50-60 percent do not QT.

I'll start qt fish but no way I can qt all coral snails and inverts.

 

[Dine]

for me it boils down to 1 reason. I don’t have a coral QT and don’t plan on setting one up. And to QT fish while just dumping in coral seems like a waste of time.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'll start qt fish but no way I can qt all coral snails and inverts.

Just try to buy your inverts from fishless systems. You'll still run the risk of coral pests, but at least you won't be introducing fish diseases into your tank.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The fish ain’t medicated in the wild. Give it space. Feed it well, give it space, limit aggression and you shouldn’t have any issues. Immune system will do the job (sans internal parasites. I DO treat for those)

That helps, but won't stop an active infection, fish do not have very well developed immune systems compared to mammals, and even then, immunity only goes so far.

Fish Immunity

I was working on some text this morning. Not enough for a full article (yet) so I thought I'd post it here for discussion: Immunity in Fish The ability for a fish to fight off a disease (or not) is based on the level of immunity it has. A physically stressed fish will have a lower immunity...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[Paul B]

I was asking Sfin... Because I already know your rationale.

Sorry

. I also want to be Paul.

Shave your head.

 

[MnFish1]

Sorry

You don't have to be sorry. I just wanted SFin to know I was asking him.

 

[Nemo&Friends]

I do not quarantine because I treat my fish the way I treated my kids or myself. No drugs if not sick, and the less medecine the better.
I understand that an observation tank could be useful, and I have set up one now, with rocks and macro. I have not used it yet though. All my fish went directly in the tank, with the water they came in.
My oldest fish is over 12 years old. My rabbit fish is 8, and the hyppo is over 3.
I lost 2 fish who jumped, 2 were attacked by an aggressive damsel when first introduced, and one I killed by error, as it was hiding in a rock which I scrubbed under tap water to remove bubble algae. I never lost one to disease.
I think the most useful thing to do to keep fish healthy is to: First make sure your tank is large enough for your fish when it reaches adult size.
Second choose its tank mate so they will get along
Third do not over crowd you tank and have enough hiding places for them.
I also read Paul thread and he makes a lot of sense, so I want to copy him.

 

[MnFish1]

I have noticed that sliding off topic is a natural part of the progression of many threads, just like my own comment thus far

I received a Koi in the mail that had an open wound on one side. The fish were for a friend’s pond so I set up a giant tank added foam filters and made a holding pond to qt/ heal the little fish. I looked on here and found some recommendations for a general cure and after the fish were settled in I netted them from there pond and did a 10 gallon soak for 30 minutes and put them back into the qt pond. I repeated the treatment and kept the patient alive (after I was told that it would likely die. I don’t normally buy fish online so usually I don’t bring home fishes with open wounds.
I did buy a harlequin tusk in a hurry that had a wound but I dumped him in the reef and fed the tank fresh chopped live foods and a week later without meds he was healing and I still have the fish a few years now. I don’t qt because I try to keep the tanks running clean and feed well and injured or spotty fishes generally respond well and live.
The koi tank was an instant set up because I can’t give a buddy a sick fish. I still have them months later but when the water warms up I will give them to him with a long qt to insure that I don’t create an issue with his other ones.

I don’t qt because I don’t need to.

I think the main issue people have is stocking density. The more fish surface area in your tank - the larger the surface area that parasites have to potentially 'infect'. Additionally, it is my opinion (based on reading science based articles) - that after a time, many parasites die off in a tank as fish maintain at least some immunity - and each reinfection is less and less until the population cannot sustain itself.

I think another problem is the internet - and internet shipping. I have now not bought a fish for maybe 5 years. Before it seemed like a revolving door of fish doing fine for some time then a problem bang. I now only buy from an LFS (coral and etc) - with fishless invert tanks - and only where the fish in tanks do have inverts - so I know there is no copper present. The shop also pre-quarantines fish (with observation) - and with Praziquantel - but they also treat any evident Ich, etc - for 30 days. I have not seen a spot or problem for years. PS - I feed my fish Nori every other day - and LRS frozen food every other day (once/day). the rest of their nutrition, they get from algae in the tank. There are 3 tangs (purple, yellow, yellow), a large tusk and a clown.

 

[MnFish1]

I do not quarantine because I treat my fish the way I treated my kids or myself. No drugs if not sick, and the less medecine the better.
I understand that an observation tank could be useful, and I have set up one now, with rocks and macro. I have not used it yet though. All my fish went directly in the tank, with the water they came in.
My oldest fish is over 12 years old. My rabbit fish is 8, and the hyppo is over 3.
I lost 2 fish who jumped, 2 were attacked by an aggressive damsel when first introduced, and one I killed by error, as it was hiding in a rock which I scrubbed under tap water to remove bubble algae. I never lost one to disease.
I think the most useful thing to do to keep fish healthy is to: First make sure your tank is large enough for your fish when it reaches adult size.
Second choose its tank mate so they will get along
Third do not over crowd you tank and have enough hiding places for them.
I also read Paul thread and he makes a lot of sense, so I want to copy him.

Im curious - why are you setting up an observation tank if you never lose fish? Where do you source your fish? I do not believe that @Paul B has an observation tank. Note this is not meant as a criticism - but merely - you seem to be straddling both sides (which is fine)

 

[Paul B]

fish do not have very well developed immune systems compared to mammals, and even then, immunity only goes so far.

I think fish have a better immune system for what a fish needs. Yes, it is different from a mammal system but mammals need to worry more about air borne infections and don't have as many parasite problems because parasites swim much better than they fly.

Also as fish breathe, all the pathogens in the water also get into the fishes gut besides their gills. If you look down a fishes throat, you can see almost all the way down into their stomach. We have hairs in our nose that filters "some" of the particles we breathe in. Fish have no such filters.

A fish is entirely encased in slime even down their throat and inside their gills. That slime has antiparasitic and antibacterial properties that mammals don't have because mammal skin, like ours is dead on the outside and doesn't posess any anti anything. The slime is produced continually and is water soluble so constantly washes away with the pathogens. We have to use soap for that. Well, some of us anyway.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[Jacked Reefer]

That helps, but won't stop an active infection, fish do not have very well developed immune systems compared to mammals, and even then, immunity only goes so far.

Fish Immunity

I was working on some text this morning. Not enough for a full article (yet) so I thought I'd post it here for discussion: Immunity in Fish The ability for a fish to fight off a disease (or not) is based on the level of immunity it has. A physically stressed fish will have a lower immunity...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

I can just base my claim off of personal experience, as I have eliminated ich, and lympho without any treatment, and have even seen symptoms that I thought might be flukes disappear. I agree that diseases such as urenoma and velvet would warrant more concern. However you can generally avoid these by purchasing from a trusted source and observing your fish before you get it. Great write up as well!

 

[MnFish1]

I think fish have a better immune system for what a fish needs. Yes, it is different from a mammal system but mammals need to worry more about air borne infections and don't have as many parasite problems because parasites swim much better than they fly.

Also as fish breathe, all the pathogens in the water also get into the fishes gut besides their gills. If you look down a fishes throat, you can see almost all the way down into their stomach. We have hairs in our nose that filters "some" of the particles we breathe in. Fish have no such filters.

A fish is entirely encased in slime even down their throat and inside their gills. That slime has antiparasitic and antibacterial properties that mammals don't have because mammal skin, like ours is dead on the outside and doesn't posess any anti anything. The slime is produced continually and is water soluble so constantly washes away with the pathogens. We have to use soap for that. Well, some of us anyway.

Just my opinion of course.

1. The gills act as filters - just like the hairs in (most people's noses).
2. People are also encased in slime in their nose, mouth, throat and lungs - as well as their entire GI tract. And humans (like fish) - have both an innate and specific immune system.
3. The dead skin is in fact a proactive barrier for people - and it's covered with various bacteria - that also help prevent pathogens from killing us each time we have a cut.
4. Parasites in water do not only 'swim'. Its well known, for example that Cryptocaryon (Ich) has evolved to drop off fish at night - and most fish 'sleep' in the same spot every night - thus - they are re-infected over and over. Parasites in people also do not 'fly' - they are eaten, 'injected' by mosquitos/ticks, etc....

 

[MnFish1]

I can just base my claim off of personal experience, as I have eliminated ich, and lympho without any treatment, and have even seen symptoms that I thought might be flukes disappear. I agree that diseases such as urenoma and velvet would warrant more concern. However you can generally avoid these by purchasing from a trusted source and observing your fish before you get it. Great write up as well!

1. Lympho always disappears.
2. Ich usually is not a fatal disease - depending on multiple factors - in fact, in the wild - up to 70 percent of certain fish are infected in certain seasons.
3. Then you possibly/probably did not have flukes

 

[C4ctus99]

It took me 2 days… but I read through this whole thread!

I did not quarantine up until 2 weeks ago when I brought home a coral beauty and it got ich. I did 2 things, 1: turned my display tank into a hospital tank. 2: used that as an excuse to buy a bigger tank.

I put all 3 of my fish in copper (although only one showed symptoms) and was planning to do a full 30 days, but I think this thread changed my mind. I am trying to find a lfs that sells LRS and am moving all 3 fish back to the display tank at the 14 day mark. I know there will be the risk of reinfection, but am hopeful that low stress and good food will alleviate it. I already knew I didn’t feed my fish the healthiest diet, and this thread was full of people stating that as very important so when they get moved back I’m going to feed them well.

Like a previous poster said… I wanna be like Paul

 

[C4ctus99]

@MnFish1 to be completely transparent and respond to an earlier question you had in the thread, I have lost a total of 5 out of the 8 fish I have brought home in the 6 months since I got into this hobby. 2 died within 7 days, one after 3 days, and 1 within 24 hours. The last one was a diamond goby I had for the first 2-3 months and he passed away while my tank was at someone else’s house. As such, I have come to the conclusion that I have an environmental acclimation/stress issue and think I’m going to focus on plenty of rock/hiding places on my new tank.

To be clear, non of the 4 fish I have personally witnessed die were showing symptoms of disease

 

[MnFish1]

It took me 2 days… but I read through this whole thread!

I did not quarantine up until 2 weeks ago when I brought home a coral beauty and it got ich. I did 2 things, 1: turned my display tank into a hospital tank. 2: used that as an excuse to buy a bigger tank.

I put all 3 of my fish in copper (although only one showed symptoms) and was planning to do a full 30 days, but I think this thread changed my mind. I am trying to find a lfs that sells LRS and am moving all 3 fish back to the display tank at the 14 day mark. I know there will be the risk of reinfection, but am hopeful that low stress and good food will alleviate it. I already knew I didn’t feed my fish the healthiest diet, and this thread was full of people stating that as very important so when they get moved back I’m going to feed them well.

Like a previous poster said… I wanna be like Paul

I would suggest you're making a mistake - as long as you started a procedure - complete it - otherwise - if you want to be like Paul - (fine with me) - just dump the fish into your tank now - stop treatment. Doing 1/2 - IMHO - is a mistake.. But again it's only my opinion. If you based your decision on this thread - as compared to the hundreds of others - again - I think you are making a potential mistake. Best wishes.

 

[MnFish1]

@MnFish1 to be completely transparent and respond to an earlier question you had in the thread, I have lost a total of 5 out of the 8 fish I have brought home in the 6 months since I got into this hobby. 2 died within 7 days, one after 3 days, and 1 within 24 hours. The last one was a diamond goby I had for the first 2-3 months and he passed away while my tank was at someone else’s house. As such, I have come to the conclusion that I have an environmental acclimation/stress issue and think I’m going to focus on plenty of rock/hiding places on my new tank.

To be clear, non of the 4 fish I have personally witnessed die were showing symptoms of disease

Thanks for the answer - I would posit/suggest - that many fish that die do not show signs of disease (even if they have one) - i.e. velvet affecting more the gills rather than the skin, flukes, etc. HOWEVER - I fully agree with you that buying new fish is the highest risk of mortality. Its a question I have asked multiple times with no real answer - Is the problem no QT - or is is acclimation.

 

[C4ctus99]

I would suggest you're making a mistake - as long as you started a procedure - complete it - otherwise - if you want to be like Paul - (fine with me) - just dump the fish into your tank now - stop treatment. Doing 1/2 - IMHO - is a mistake.. But again it's only my opinion. If you based your decision on this thread - as compared to the hundreds of others - again - I think you are making a potential mistake. Best wishes.

I’m considering it an experiment. The one fish that had symptoms has been symptomless for ~10 days now. The other two never had any symptoms (both clowns, I believe CB). I figure worst case scenario I end up moving the coral beauty back into a hospital tank if symptoms return. Honestly, the only reason I quarantined in the first place was because I did not feel my tank was ready or mature enough to just throw a sick fish into. Diet and no stress seem to be a huge thing for success if you don’t quarantine and I’m hoping to be able to provide that for fish I bring home going forward.

Also, I definitely appreciate that you respect my decision even if you disagree with it, not everyone on this forum seems to have that ability