Freshly harvested live rock, now what?

[Belgian Anthias]

This seems pointless. The old guys like myself remember the days of buying live rock direct or from a middleman that came from the sea. It seems like you are over complicating the process, what is there to gain from dissecting the topic into the smallest of details?

Maybe because small details are very important for managing and maintaining a marine eco-system? The best " life rock" for a reef aquarium is without doubt a piece of healthy growing stony coral as it contains all diversity needed for the survival of that coral. Small details may change the existing balance in the coral holobiont in a way the coral will survive transition to an other environment or not. Why an other valuable and expensive piece of live must be treated differently, without taking the necessary precautions for keeping it alive? Or is taking a brush and remove everything which may need attention the solution? What represents the real value of live rock?
We can give attention to the details which may keep everything alive or being satisfied with a piece of cured ( cleaned) stone which has no or very little added value at all.

 

[Dolphins18]

Maybe because small details are very important for managing and maintaining a marine eco-system? The best " life rock" for a reef aquarium is without doubt a piece of healthy growing stony coral as it contains all diversity needed for the survival of that coral. Small details may change the existing balance in the coral holobiont in a way the coral will survive transition to an other environment or not. Why an other valuable and expensive piece of live must be treated differently, without taking the necessary precautions for keeping it alive? Or is taking a brush and remove everything which may need attention the solution? What represents the real value of live rock?
We can give attention to the details which may keep everything alive or being satisfied with a piece of cured ( cleaned) stone which has no or very little added value at all.

There will still be die off. There is die off on that stone before it's even boxed up and shipped to you. Lots of that stuff will not adapt to aquarium life. The second the rock is exposed to air when the divers collect it there is die off.
How can small details which are not yet understood benefit us? For all we know some of that stuff may not be beneficial to certain species.

 

[Big Smelly fish]

I been buying live rock for years, not very complicated,
The available rock these days is different from the stuff we where buying in 80’s and up to the mid 2000’’. The early stuff came from overseas and was pretty much clean of sponge, seaweed and any type of coral or living animal. Most came from Fiji, Marshall Islands, and other locations and long travel time and was still have good biodiversity alive on it,

 

[Big Smelly fish]

I have been using live rock since the 80’s back then it was mostly Walt smith’s rock from Fiji, excellent rock . Marshall Islands and Tonga rock along with rock from other places,
Nowadays it’s not available from those places and if it is not being imported. Today we have gulf rock . It’s excellent rock, full of life, a lot more living on it because of less travel time, you do get some die off , I have found it to be very minor and worth dealing with.
as far as unwanted hitch hikers, I can deal with that.
live rock isn’t complicated.

 

[TnFishwater98]

I rinse of rocks in buckets and put back into a QT several times. You get the ocean debris/silt off the rocks, some hitchhikers will fall to the bottom of the bucket. When it’s in between bucket washes it’s in a QT for observing. Do this for about a month and your LR will be cleaned up and you’ll have a high chance of knowing if there might be anything bad. I also went to Container Store because they have a bunch of acrylic items and got some platforms. I do this so I can look under the LR while it’s in QT.

I also got that metal rack with tanks on it at Container Store. Great place for DIY projects
* Don’t throw out the water in buckets until you look in them at night with a flashlight. You might be surprised with what you see.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

There will still be die off. There is die off on that stone before it's even boxed up and shipped to you. Lots of that stuff will not adapt to aquarium life. The second the rock is exposed to air when the divers collect it there is die off.
How can small details which are not yet understood benefit us? For all we know some of that stuff may not be beneficial to certain species.

If there is die off, this probably will have had a huge effect on the transport conditions and the parameters of the transport water. Is it a detail trying to avoid what may happen to the valuable diversity still alive due to the sudden gas exchange when the bag is opened or as often is the case, when the rock is removed from the transport water en brought in contact with open air?

Lots of that stuff will not adapt to aquarium life! Thinking about 'Why not' is about details but also about basic management.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

The myth of " live rock "is based on the ability to introduce tropical marine diversity and its capacity as an alternative for a bio- filter. Optimizing the chances for survival is the only way the myth may become reality. This includes trying to preserve as much as possible of the biological balance present the moment of harvesting , the balance between consumers, producers and reducers, between the original heterotrophs, autotrophs and photo-autotrophs present. Restoring this balance as soon as possible I assume is essential for the survival rate of the original diversity.

The valuable piece of stone has been delivered to the door, the way it was harvested and transported can no longer be changed.

Is it a detail to think about what can happen when we open the bag and put it in contact with the open air? Isn't the intention to transfer as much of the local marine diversity in its origin to our aquarium system as possible? Or to preserve the piece of stone in its capacity, as a show object, how a piece of real living stone looks like in its natural environment?

When put in an established main display after being quarentainred it will look the same as all other rock present within a very short time due to grazing and competition. This way the effort for preserving as much as possible of the original live has very little added value. But why not doing it the other way around? What if we can maintain the rock mainly in it's original state and bring in all the rest to be seeded by the original, limiting the competition for the original?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Regarding the capacity as a bio-filter I can be very brief. Stone provides a certain growth space and the vegetation on it contributes to the total bioburden. Depending on the growth it supports the load-bearing capacity and removes toxic nutrients from the water column or loads the load-bearing capacity by adding toxic nutrients. Since controlling (managing) the necessary growth is difficult or impossible, the possibilities to use "living stone" as a bio-filter are very limited. We do not need to import " live rock" for installing sufficient carrying capacity. Using a bio-filter makes the carrying capacity manageable. if one adds a piece of sterilized rock to an active medium on can be sure it does not load the load-bearing capacity,. As it provides new space for new growth it may be a lot more efficient as a bio-filter compared to a piece of fresh live rock. ref: MB Anthias 2018-2019

Growth means more cells are produced as are reduced ( remineralization).

The rock which is waiting for proper treatment represents a high bio-load, but will probably not be sufficiently vigorous to contribute to the load-bearing capacity. Cleaning up ( reducing) what is dying will strain the system until a new balance is found between the decomposers and producers. In the meantime, it must be prevented that the amount of nutrients can reach toxic values, which makes it impossible to restore the balance and as a result of which the stone with its diversity can be lost. The produced inorganic substances may be used for the growth of NON-original organisms.
Since we know that the stone will load the system, the necessary load-bearing capacity is installed in advance, so the quarantine tank is already cycled and conditioned for what is to come.
In my opinion this is the possible way to preserve as much of the original life as possible.

How you would do it?

 

[X-37B]

For me it would depend on the size of your system. From what you said I would take the 2.2lb rock and place it in the sump of my 120, total 150 gallon system, or my connected 30 gal fuge.
I would leave it for a week and remove anything I did not want from it.
My system is 28 months old and I would not expect to see any issues even with a small amount of die off.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

The rock is still in it's original bag, the bag is still closed. 1/3 of the space is taken by airspace and it is slightly under pressure. Probably the bag has been filled up with air, maybe with EANx ( nitrox) as this is now available at most filling- and diving stations, maybe with pure oxygen? The rock is delivered within 24h but this time schedule is sometimes difficult to keep. How important is this schedule for the survival rate? Depending on the airmix used?

As most " life" a piece of "live" rock has a very high BOD, biological oxygen demand, Not only a lot of oxygen is consumed but also a lot of CO2 will have been produced within the past 24h. I expect the transport water to be over-saturated and CO2 drastically has influenced pH . Also, I expect a lot of ammonia is produced which normally is released in the environment and reused. In the transport water one my expect it is mainly available in the form of ammonium due to the lowered pH , which makes it less problematic during transport as ammonium is considered to be less toxic. At this point , a lower pH during transport may be considered beneficiary.

If the bag is pressurized, once opened the transition and gas exchange may take place very fast.
I have concerns about what the consequences of opening the bag might be for the valuable diversity present in it. Since the vegetation and life on the rock are probably largely dependent on each other, the death of the most sensitive species will probably also have major consequences for the other original species. It is therefore important to give especially the most sensitive a chance so that everything else can flourish. If that doesn't happen, eventually little of the original diversity will probably survive and the balance will have to be restored with NON-original species and clades, which is not the intention of the whole operation.. Transition-shock? It will be difficult to avoid.

How you would do it?

 

[X-37B]

I think you are overthinking it, imo.
Just open the bag and place it it your system. Their is really not more we can do unless you want to elbaborate?

 

[Sleeping Giant]

Throw it out. It's all wet and gross, probably full of poop and dead inverts.
It serves no purpose, other than to be a lawn ornament.

 

[Chrisv.]

Throw it out. It's all wet and gross, probably full of poop and dead inverts.
It serves no purpose, other than to be a lawn ornament.

Not even a very nice lawn ornament. You'd need to bleach it before it was suitable for the yard. Especially if it was maybe transported in a bag that contained nitrox.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Not even a very nice lawn ornament. You'd need to bleach it before it was suitable for the yard. Especially if it was maybe transported in a bag that contained nitrox.

What is wrong with nitrox ( EANx? ) I am using it for years instead of normal air. it is just oxygen enriched air used for diving.

 

[Sleeping Giant]

What is wrong with nitrox ( EANx? ) I am using it for years instead of normal air. it is just oxygen enriched air used for diving.

We're just bugging ya, nothing serious to be taken by my comment, lol
Best of luck with the new live rock.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

It is rock with marine live on it.
Assume a lot of the live present are corals, it will still be the same piece of " live rock".
We have not discussed the type of live present on the rock, we know it is a piece of rock placed on the reef for this purpose many years ago.
Does the presence of corals on the rock change the value of the rock for the purpose we have in mind, it's ability to provide original diversity, the only valuable and for me acceptable reason to import "live rock" .
Does the knowledge a lot of coral is present change the way the piece of " live rock " should be treated, harvested, transported, etc..?


For me it makes little difference,


How you would do it?

 

[Sleeping Giant]

Seriously, what is it your looking for?

Is it substance for a book or article?

It seems like your not really asking anything when you pitch a reasoning and example of what you are or will be doing. Your title "Freshly harvested live rock, now what?" is written as a question, but from what I have read, there is no question really posed just processes that you use.

 

[Chrisv.]

Seriously, what is it your looking for?

Is it substance for a book or article?

It seems like your not really asking anything when you pitch a reasoning and example of what you are or will be doing. Your title "Freshly harvested live rock, now what?" is written as a question, but from what I have read, there is no question really posed just processes that you use.

You.... You....MEANY!

 

[Chrisv.]

You.... You....MEANY!

Or is it meanie? I never know.

 

[kittenbritches]

I'm sorry, if you wrote an article on this, what's the point of this thread? You started with a question. If you already have what you believe to be the answer, what's your goal here?

The whole thing reads like a professor giving a lecture, during which he posits the condition and treatment of the live rock with the purpose of eliciting argument.

It honestly got very tl;dr for me — a lot of hot air. I also suspect that with English as a second language, the questioning may be phrased a completely different way in his head.