Freshwater Frustration

[Indytraveler83]

I'm posting this to the lounge as it doesn't really apply to reef keeping...

I've had a planted tank for 3 years. Keeping the plants is easy. For whatever reason, keeping the fish is brutally hard and discouraging. Bland, colorless fish are easy to keep, but anything even remotely interesting seems to die without warning and without symptoms. This setup has been 3 years of setbacks and frustration, regular fish deaths and the only thing I have to show for it is a moderately cool aquascape and some huge freshwater plants.

What really confuses me is that my 54 gal reef tank has gone significantly EASIER than that. Saltwater is more work, and more expensive for sure, I'm not saying fresh is more complicated. But... if fish are sick, they tend to show symptoms, and with tons of different water parameters to monitor and corals to help clue me in, sort to speak, I find it EASIER to keep my reef stable, then the planted tank. If my reef is sick, I can always figure out WHY. If my planted tank is sick, I just play a guessing game till they stop dying.

I'm not posting parameters or specifics because this is reef2reef not a freshwater help site. Thankfully, this place has been a thousand times more helpful than any freshwater forum or group I've tried to consult. So I have 2 questions:

1) Has anyone else experienced this? Saltwater being easier than fresh?

2) What would you do if you were me? I'm at the point of frustration that I'm contemplating a complete teardown of this tank. Its a 55 gallon, and would need filters replaced to go saltwater, lights replaced to go reef. Would you try again? African cichlids? FOWLR? 2nd reef? Trash the whole thing and start over with a different setup altogether?

 

[AngryMike2016]

Which freshwater fish in specific are you having trouble keeping?

 

[Indytraveler83]

Which freshwater fish in specific are you having trouble keeping?

I've tried angelfish, rams, gourami, several swords/platties and mollies (Not all at the same time mind you), and they all end up flourishing at first, only to die without much warning.

I've had success with barbs, rainbowfish and have some thriving kribensis cichlids now. Cory cats and most scavengers fair well. Larger tetras do well, but smaller (colorful) ones don't last long.

 

[Tiger Brown]

I believe a beautiful planted freshwater tank is easily as difficult as a salt tank, not a full reef, but a FOWLR in my experience. I rarely have trouble with freshwater fish, I enjoy tetras and cichlids, although I've kept most everything, except discus. I've found to have success with plants your water needs to be soft and slightly acidic, or at least neutral. I know tetras do well with this and they come in every color. A school of neon tetras is really beautiful.

If you are keeping plants healthy, then you have the hard part down. You would really need to check your water parameters to determine your fish problem IMO. I wish I could do a plant tank again, but the water from my tap is very hard and alkaline so nothing grows without a significant amount of water treatment prior to using it. My salt tank is easier, although much more expensive. Best of luck.

 

[Onewolf]

What sort of filtration do you use and what's your water change regimen?

Going from tap water to RODI made a huge improvement in our freshwater tanks.

 

[Peace River]

I have kept and bred many freshwater species including barbs, tetras, catfish, cichlids, killifish, anabantids, minnows, and more including two tanks of Angelfish that I have had for years. What you are describing shouldn't be normal. There are so many questions that come to mind, but I would suggest that you focus on water quality. Does there seem to be any particular trends? Do the fish get skinny? Do they seem to get a disease? What and how often do you feed the fish? Do they all seem to die at once? Are there any marks on their bodies? Do you use city water? How do you prepare the water before putting it in your tanks? Filtration? Amount and frequency of your water changes?

 

[Indytraveler83]

I've found to have success with plants your water needs to be soft and slightly acidic, or at least neutral.

I wish I could do a plant tank again, but the water from my tap is very hard and alkaline so nothing grows without a significant amount of water treatment prior to using it.

This may be where the problem lies as well. The plants don't seem to mind, and I've gotten PH down to around 7.8, but that's as low as I can keep it stable. Alkalinity is off the charts high. Most of the live fish in this area live in this type of water at the lfs, and at least two of them tell me the water coming from their breeder/supplier is high ph, high alkalinity as well.

Everything else I do is fairly typical. 10% water change about monthly, water parameters never fluctuate. The tank is usually understocked, I run 2 Marineland Emperor 400 filters on the back, so it turns over a massive amount of water for freshwater, but the plants tend to dilute the current.

I've got cory cats and some rather bland rainbows that have seen their way through most of the life of this tank, so I can keep something stable... just not much of what I've tried.

The kribensis have been growing like weeds, and I don't know if I should expect their deaths, or if if their native environment (technically african cichlids) make them perfect candidates for a tank like this?

I'm also uncertain of my sources. PetCo and Petsmart are about my only good source of freshwater, as my preferred LFS only deals in saltwater and a small selection of african cichlids (where I got the kribs). Therefore, my reef and my planted tank are almost entirely from different sources.

I've got 4 ideas really:

1) Stick with what works, add tiger barbs and a few other hearty fish that will tolerate high ph/alk water. This allows me to keep the planted tank, with minimal changes. It ignores the possibility of my supplier being the problem.

2) Switch to African Cichlids. Allows me to keep the equipment more or less intact, and switch to a high ph/alk fish AND switch entirely to my preferred LFS as a supplier. It does mean that I'll have to let go of the planted system and go with a rocky aquascape. (Oddly enough have never kept them before)

3) An idea that sort of intrigues me- a shot at a demonstrative FOWLR budget build. That is... starting a build thread for a true budget saltwater build, and trying to defeat this notion that saltwater is always more expensive/complicated than fresh.

4) Tear it all down and start fresh. Advantage- I get to do anything. Disadvantage- I can't really afford this and give

 

[reefwiser]

Where are you getting your fish? Would be another question. Not all sources of freshwater fish are the same.

Sounds like you have hard water.
I use Ro/Di as I have a reef too. Plants and many freshwater fish like soft water.
Where I live it’s hard water and so there are a lot of African cichlid keepers in town. I am not much of a big fish fan and my wife likes plants so it soft water and rainbows and tetras.

 

[Indytraveler83]

I have kept and bred many freshwater species including barbs, tetras, catfish, cichlids, killifish, anabantids, minnows, and more including two tanks of Angelfish that I have had for years. What you are describing shouldn't be normal. There are so many questions that come to mind, but I would suggest that you focus on water quality. Does there seem to be any particular trends? Do the fish get skinny? Do they seem to get a disease? What and how often do you feed the fish? Do they all seem to die at once? Are there any marks on their bodies? Do you use city water? How do you prepare the water before putting it in your tanks? Filtration? Amount and frequency of your water changes?

Aside from the high-ish ph and high alk of my water, quality is stable and good. I have several cory cats, rainbows and flying fox that have survived rounds and rounds of other tankmates without so much of a sign of illness or distress.

The fish... just die. No marks on bodies, no bloating, no ick, no visibile disturbances I can find at all. One day they are fine, the next they are dead.

The only pattern I see, is almost all fish adjust and get into the system without a problem and survive anywhere between 3 and 12 months with no problem. Then they suddenly die. Not all of them mind you, just the ones that are remotely interesting (LOL?).

If it is something in the water quality, its something that not all of them are susceptible to, and something that needs time to build up. Again makes me wonder if the alkalinity is the issue here...

 

[Indytraveler83]

Where are you getting your fish? Would be another question. Not all sources of freshwater fish are the same.

This is my #2 suspect. The best LFS in the area carries only saltwater and African Cichlids. My freshwater source is the normal chain suspects (Petco, Petsmart, etc).

 

[reefwiser]

This is my #2 suspect. The best LFS in the area carries only saltwater and African Cichlids. My freshwater source is the normal chain suspects (Petco, Petsmart, etc).

Best online freshwater sales site I use is
https://www.wetspottropicalfish.com/
The tops in shipping and care of fish. Better than saltwater fish online too.

 

[Peace River]

This may be where the problem lies as well. The plants don't seem to mind, and I've gotten PH down to around 7.8, but that's as low as I can keep it stable. Alkalinity is off the charts high. Most of the live fish in this area live in this type of water at the lfs, and at least two of them tell me the water coming from their breeder/supplier is high ph, high alkalinity as well.

Everything else I do is fairly typical. 10% water change about monthly, water parameters never fluctuate. The tank is usually understocked, I run 2 Marineland Emperor 400 filters on the back, so it turns over a massive amount of water for freshwater, but the plants tend to dilute the current.

I've got cory cats and some rather bland rainbows that have seen their way through most of the life of this tank, so I can keep something stable... just not much of what I've tried.

The kribensis have been growing like weeds, and I don't know if I should expect their deaths, or if if their native environment (technically african cichlids) make them perfect candidates for a tank like this?

I'm also uncertain of my sources. PetCo and Petsmart are about my only good source of freshwater, as my preferred LFS only deals in saltwater and a small selection of african cichlids (where I got the kribs). Therefore, my reef and my planted tank are almost entirely from different sources.

I've got 4 ideas really:

1) Stick with what works, add tiger barbs and a few other hearty fish that will tolerate high ph/alk water. This allows me to keep the planted tank, with minimal changes. It ignores the possibility of my supplier being the problem.

2) Switch to African Cichlids. Allows me to keep the equipment more or less intact, and switch to a high ph/alk fish AND switch entirely to my preferred LFS as a supplier. It does mean that I'll have to let go of the planted system and go with a rocky aquascape. (Oddly enough have never kept them before)

3) An idea that sort of intrigues me- a shot at a demonstrative FOWLR budget build. That is... starting a build thread for a true budget saltwater build, and trying to defeat this notion that saltwater is always more expensive/complicated than fresh.

4) Tear it all down and start fresh. Advantage- I get to do anything. Disadvantage- I can't really afford this and give

Here are some thoughts on your latest comments: my water is 7.8 pH with a conductivity of about 300 uS and I rarely change the parameters unless I am trying to trigger breeding. IME, cichlids and plants don't mix well. A budget FOWLR is very doable and saltwater doesn't need to be expensive if you understand filtration and SW water quality. As you pointed out, and @reefwiser highlighted, I have not had the best experience with Petco/Petsmart fish.

One other note (and this is my own personal recommendation that others may disagree with), I would recommend that for FW it is worth investing the ~$25 in a conductivity meter. Additionally, I personally would recommend more and larger water changes for the fish.

 

[Indytraveler83]

Best online freshwater sales site I use is
https://www.wetspottropicalfish.com/
The tops in shipping and care of fish. Better than saltwater fish online too.

Appreciate the link! No matter the future of this tank, I'm going to try very hard to steer away from the chain stores from now on. I'll always give my mom and pop lfs my business first, but will certainly look there for anything they don't carry.

 

[Indytraveler83]

Here are some thoughts on your latest comments: my water is 7.8 pH with a conductivity of about 300 uS and I rarely change the parameters unless I am trying to trigger breeding. IME, cichlids and plants don't mix well. A budget FOWLR is very doable and saltwater doesn't need to be expensive if you understand filtration and SW water quality. As you pointed out, and @reefwiser highlighted, I have not had the best experience with Petco/Petsmart fish.

One other note (and this is my own personal recommendation that others may disagree with), I would recommend that for FW it is worth investing the ~$25 in a conductivity meter. Additionally, I personally would recommend more and larger water changes for the fish.

The only cichlids I've had positive experiences with plants are various dwarfs. I've got some huge Amazon Swords, anubus and a few other things that are too tough and too rooted in for the dwarfs to do much damage. Sadly the kribs are the only dwarfs that seem to do well in this tank. If I go African, I'll probably try to see if I can find someone else with a planted tank that wants my plants.

 

[Peace River]

Best online freshwater sales site I use is
https://www.wetspottropicalfish.com/
The tops in shipping and care of fish. Better than saltwater fish online too.

+1

Wet Spot can be a little expensive when you include shipping, but you will be hard pressed to find a better selection and higher quality fish.

One of my frustrations with the chain stores is that they often add salt blocks to the sumps to suppress diseases and the water can be almost brackish and then when you bring your fish home and place them in good water quality that is not high in salt the fish either goes into osmoregulatory shock, has their immune system compromised, or is otherwise overly stressed in a way that does not set the fish up for long term health.

 

[Peace River]

The only cichlids I've had positive experiences with plants are various dwarfs. I've got some huge Amazon Swords, anubus and a few other things that are too tough and too rooted in for the dwarfs to do much damage. Sadly the kribs are the only dwarfs that seem to do well in this tank. If I go African, I'll probably try to see if I can find someone else with a planted tank that wants my plants.

If you were to set up a cichlid tanks with rock and caves instead of plants then your new concern would be managing aggression, but at least African cichlids are not as mean as many of the South American species.

 

[Indytraveler83]

+1

Wet Spot can be a little expensive when you include shipping, but you will be hard pressed to find a better selection and higher quality fish.

One of my frustrations with the chain stores is that they often add salt blocks to the sumps to suppress diseases and the water can be almost brackish and then when you bring your fish home and place them in good water quality that is not high in salt the fish either goes into osmoregulatory shock, has their immune system compromised, or is otherwise overly stressed in a way that does not set the fish up for long term health.

I was totally unaware of the salt situation. That's unfortunate...

 

[Indytraveler83]

If you were to set up a cichlid tanks with rock and caves instead of plants then your new concern would be managing aggression, but at least African cichlids are not as mean as many of the South American species.

I kept South American cichlids when I was a teen (convicts, firemouth, Jack Dempseys, Oscars, etc) and found them to be extremely forgiving with water quality, but managing aggression was either done with overpopulation, constantly re-arraigning territories, or that rare situation that I found a "tank boss" who kept everyone in line without being a bully outright. I'd always heard Africans were worse. Are they not?

 

[Peace River]

I was totally unaware of the salt situation. That's unfortunate...

Please don't just take my word for it. The next time you happen to be in a chain store ask one of the employees - they will often tell you the truth (they usually don't even know that it is a problem). Secondly, if you do choose to get a conductivity meter then get a small sample of water and test it for yourself. 280-300 uS is what comes out of my faucet, anything higher than 1000-1200 is a concern, and I have seen numbers as high as 3-4,000 when testing aquarium water from chain stores.

 

[Peace River]

I kept South American cichlids when I was a teen (convicts, firemouth, Jack Dempseys, Oscars, etc) and found them to be extremely forgiving with water quality, but managing aggression was either done with overpopulation, constantly re-arraigning territories, or that rare situation that I found a "tank boss" who kept everyone in line without being a bully outright. I'd always heard Africans were worse. Are they not?

Both are aggressive and the approaches that you listed would apply to both groups, but in my experience most African cichlids are less aggressive than most Central/South American cichlids. I have breed Jack Dempseys, Red Devils, Convicts, and several other Central/South Americans and developed a separator system with egg crate to put a barrier between the breeding pair and the rest of the fish to keep from losing fish. With the aulonocara, hemichromis, pseudotropheus, and other African cichlids this approach wasn't usually necessary. Additionally, although it may not realistic for many people, breeding cichlids in round tanks prevents fish from get trapped in a corner (think about a boxer in the ring).