Freshwater help, cichlid covered in ich and upside down

DrMMI · Jan 6, 2021

Hoping to get some help with my freshwater tank. I'll admit that I dont stay on top of the maintenance on this tank like I do with my reef tank. My wife just called me at work to say that the parrot cichlid in my 220g turtle/cichlid tank is covered in white spots and upside down. Last night I noticed he was starting to develop some white spots. I put off last week's water change and figured I would do it tonight. That always clears him right up. Unfortunately, he's going downhill fast. My wife said he was upside down and my turtle started acting him. He's starting to develop some fin rot too. I had my wife take him out and put him in a 5 gallon bucket with an airstone and a heater. She put half a tablet of ich guard in there. Someone told me I should use ich-x but I can't find any at the LFS. I also put a teaspoon of kosher non-iodine salt in there. I do have some cupermine at home. Would that be too harsh on him at this point? Is there an equivalent of a freshwater dip for freshwater fish that can quickly relive a fish of parasites? He's still upside down in the bucket.

Cell · Jan 6, 2021

Hopefully someone can help here, but this is primarily a saltwater aquaria forum.

Jay Hemdal · Jan 6, 2021

DrMMI said:
Hoping to get some help with my freshwater tank. I'll admit that I dont stay on top of the maintenance on this tank like I do with my reef tank. My wife just called me at work to say that the parrot cichlid in my 220g turtle/cichlid tank is covered in white spots and upside down. Last night I noticed he was starting to develop some white spots. I put off last week's water change and figured I would do it tonight. That always clears him right up. Unfortunately, he's going downhill fast. My wife said he was upside down and my turtle started acting him. He's starting to develop some fin rot too. I had my wife take him out and put him in a 5 gallon bucket with an airstone and a heater. She put half a tablet of ich guard in there. Someone told me I should use ich-x but I can't find any at the LFS. I also put a teaspoon of kosher non-iodine salt in there. I do have some cupermine at home. Would that be too harsh on him at this point? Is there an equivalent of a freshwater dip for freshwater fish that can quickly relive a fish of parasites? He's still upside down in the bucket.

Hi,

Without a picture I have to just go with your diagnosis of ich being correct, but I have to tell you that I can count on the fingers of one hand the numbers of times I've been able to save a fish that was upside down (moribund). Don't shoot the messenger, but ich medications take 2 to 4 days to work and when a fish is not able to swim, they are almost always within 12 to 24 hours of dying.

You need to go into damage control - assuming it is ich, any other fish in the tank will now also need to be treated. Ich Guard is a pretty fair medication to use. I wouldn't use the Cupramine.

Jay

DrMMI · Jan 6, 2021

Jay Hemdal said:
Hi,

Without a picture I have to just go with your diagnosis of ich being correct, but I have to tell you that I can count on the fingers of one hand the numbers of times I've been able to save a fish that was upside down (moribund). Don't shoot the messenger, but ich medications take 2 to 4 days to work and when a fish is not able to swim, they are almost always within 12 to 24 hours of dying.

You need to go into damage control - assuming it is ich, any other fish in the tank will now also need to be treated. Ich Guard is a pretty fair medication to use. I wouldn't use the Cupramine.

Jay

As always, thank you for your help Jay. I got home a little while ago and set up a real hospital tank for him instead of the bucket. Here are some pictures and video. He doesn't appear to be breathing fast. When I saw him this morning, he was covered in what looked like dry skin. It seems to have sloughed off now. He's not swimming around at all. Just kind of drifting upside down.

Mikosreef · Jan 6, 2021

I bred cichlids for years and this does not look like ich

From your original statement you said there was a turtle in the tank?

Turtles carry a lot of bacteria and viruses and my guess is that there were some parasites on the turtle that transferred over causing fin rot.

I would also not rule out the turtle biting the fish's fins when it was incapacitated.

Best remedy is to isolate as you have done and get a sponge filter.

Do 25% to 50% water changes everyday but do not change the sponge filter as it will be the only bio filter.

Good luck.

Also ensure you do not ignore the freshwater tank in the future.... if done right you can skip water changes in freshwater tanks for years. Thats for another time.

Mikosreef · Jan 6, 2021

Also want to note, the chances this guy survives are slim to none. Upside down with that much damage... pretty far gone already unfortunately

Jay Hemdal · Jan 6, 2021

DrMMI said:
As always, thank you for your help Jay. I got home a little while ago and set up a real hospital tank for him instead of the bucket. Here are some pictures and video. He doesn't appear to be breathing fast. When I saw him this morning, he was covered in what looked like dry skin. It seems to have sloughed off now. He's not swimming around at all. Just kind of drifting upside down.

That doesn’t look like ich. The turtle seems to have chewed on its fin. Do you know the pH of the water? Ive seen turtle tanks get a really low pH. That inhibits nitrification. Then, the ammonia builds up and harms the fish.
I’m sorry, but I don’t see any way to save this fish.
Jay

Mikosreef · Jan 6, 2021

Jay Hemdal said:
That doesn’t look like ich. The turtle seems to have chewed on its fin. Do you know the pH of the water? Ive seen turtle tanks get a really low pH. That inhibits nitrification. Then, the ammonia builds up and harms the fish.
I’m sorry, but I don’t see any way to save this fish.
Jay

Yup

DrMMI · Jan 6, 2021

The turtle was definitely nipping at him once he became defenseless. Just checked the parameters in the display tank. pH is 6, Ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0, and nitrate 20ppm. I'm doing a 75% water change now. My red devil has some spots on his fins as well but is otherwise acting normally. Does this look like ich on him?

Zoa_Fanatic · Jan 6, 2021

DrMMI said:
The turtle was definitely nipping at him once he became defenseless. Just checked the parameters in the display tank. pH is 6, Ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0, and nitrate 20ppm. I'm doing a 75% water change now. My red devil has some spots on his fins as well but is otherwise acting normally. Does this look like ich on him?

It doesn’t to me. Between my father and my aunt I probably take care of 200 cichlids. When they get it ich it’s pretty apparent. It’s never just a few spots they’re all over instantly.

Lkemja · Jan 6, 2021

Jay Hemdal said:
Hi,

Without a picture I have to just go with your diagnosis of ich being correct, but I have to tell you that I can count on the fingers of one hand the numbers of times I've been able to save a fish that was upside down (moribund). Don't shoot the messenger, but ich medications take 2 to 4 days to work and when a fish is not able to swim, they are almost always within 12 to 24 hours of dying.

You need to go into damage control - assuming it is ich, any other fish in the tank will now also need to be treated. Ich Guard is a pretty fair medication to use. I wouldn't use the Cupramine.

Jay

Make sure the temp is in the 80s

Mikosreef · Jan 7, 2021

DrMMI said:
The turtle was definitely nipping at him once he became defenseless. Just checked the parameters in the display tank. pH is 6, Ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0, and nitrate 20ppm. I'm doing a 75% water change now. My red devil has some spots on his fins as well but is otherwise acting normally. Does this

DrMMI said:
The turtle was definitely nipping at him once he became defenseless. Just checked the parameters in the display tank. pH is 6, Ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0, and nitrate 20ppm. I'm doing a 75% water change now. My red devil has some spots on his fins as well but is otherwise acting normally. Does this look like ich on him?

I do see the 1 white spot. Could be possible.

You need to separate the turtle from the fish.

If you are keeping them together, minimum should be 2 weekly water changes at 50 to 75%

Sponge filter should also be squeezed out thoroughly in between water changes, not during.

Jay Hemdal · Jan 7, 2021

The pH of 6 may be a key here, while this species can easily survive at that pH, I’m worried that depending on how you measured the pH, the actual reading could be lower- many pH tests get really wonky outside of their intended range.
Jay

DrMMI · Jan 7, 2021

Jay Hemdal said:
The pH of 6 may be a key here, while this species can easily survive at that pH, I’m worried that depending on how you measured the pH, the actual reading could be lower- many pH tests get really wonky outside of their intended range.
Jay

Gotcha. I used an api test kit. I'll look up ways to raise ph in freshwater tanks. Thanks Jay