Frog fish ownership

[chair]

A couple of things I'm hoping the r2r community can help me answer...

1. A reputable source for buying frogfish online

2. The most ideal water parameters or unique things I should be doing for my frogfish tank (Temp lighting MG etc)

3. Feeding amount, diet variation and supplementing

4. Can I pair my frogfish, and if so which species of frogfish should I go for...

5.Any helpful tips from previous or current owners would be greatly appreciated

I am currently new to this hobby with a newly cycled tank (32.5 fluval curved tank with 2 Ai 16 reef lights with 2 clowns at the moment and frag of frogspawn)

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Whether or not you fail in this first attempt, if you’ve got a breeding pair then I’d say you could have a decent chance of success long term.

I’m honestly not sure how to tell if the eggs are fertile early on, but as they mature you should be able to tell using a microscope or a camera with a really good zoom (you should be able to see the developing frogfish babies in fertilized eggs like in the link below - from what I’ve seen of larval Antennarius sp. specimens, the eyes would likely be the easiest part to see distinguish).

Assuming you have fertile eggs, the advice I would give is this:
- if possible, get some Parvocalanus crassirostris pods too (rotifers are great, and I would expect the larvae to go for them, but some fish larvae are picky and prefer pods over rotifers - having both seems like a good way to ensure you have good, small foods for them, and Antennarius pictus was cultured using Parvocalanus nauplii, so it seems likely to be a good food source for them). Artemia and other larger pod species would likely be good to have on hand too for the larvae as they grow.

- Get various sizes of very fine sieves so you can control the size of the feeders being offered to the larvae as/if needed.

- Add phyto directly to the larval rearing tank. It’s a good method of ensuring that the feeders are gut-loaded and healthy, and it makes them easier for the fish to see (better feeding/survival rates are typically observed with this method).
- Observe and note information about the larvae (things like how big the eggs are, how big the larvae are, when the larvae settle, when coloration comes in, etc.) and the larval behaviors (stuff like if they are attracted to light, how they react to light, if they are attracted to certain colors, what feeders they eat and what what sizes of feeders they eat at what days post hatch, what kind of substrate they prefer to settle on, are they cannibalistic, etc.).

- Watch for developmental bottlenecks and issues with your rearing methods.

- A lot of people run into feeder issues their first few times breeding, so I’d have a backup plan in place to be able to get some feeders quickly if you find yourself needing some.

That’s all the advice I can think of at the moment.

For info I would like to know:
- What are your water parameters in the broodstock tank?

- Broodstock tank setup? (Tank dimensions, flow info, lighting strength and schedule, is the tank exposed to natural light at all, etc.)

- Is there anything you can think of that may have triggered the spawning? (Anything that has changed recently, even if somewhat slowly - water temperature, lighting, water changes, etc.)

- What are you using to gut-load the feeders for the broodstock?

Exciting stuff - let us know if they turn out to be fertile!

Edit: forgot the link:

Frogfish / Anglerfish (Antennariidae) Reproduction of frogfishes: Mating Behavior, Baby and juvenile Frogfishes, special photos and illustrations (Zubi)

Frogfish (Antennariidae): Reproduction of frogfishes: Mating Behavior, Baby and juvenile Frogfishes, special photos and illustrations

www.frogfish.ch

 

[lion king]

Hello and sorry for not being able to respond to the latest post.(I've been very busy)

I now own to frog fish and they have been coexisting with no issues for a 2 months now. Feeding them a mollies ghost and gut loaded ghost shrimps. Recently I had them spawn!!! I am uncertain if the eggs are fertilized but I moved the egg raft to a 1.5 gallon black bucket with a heater and air stone temp at 78 degrees. Is there anyway to know if they are fertilized? I am also goin on day 3 with eggs I bought rotifers just in case. Any advice/ tips. Do think my attempt will be futile? Is there anything else that you would like to know?
@lion king
@ISpeakForTheSeas
@GK3

No real advice from me, breeding is not my forte. I don't even know how to sex them, so I would think to draw a male/female pair right off the bat would be miraculous in itself. I would say if there is a size difference to separate them after the deed was done.

 

[chair]

Hello all,
Update and to answer some questions!

-The first frog fish egg did not hatch
I placed it into a 1.5 gallon bucket with a air stone and heater. After about a week the egg sac deteriorated
monitored daily with ro/di top offs kept in low light conditions. Things I might do differently... bigger grow out area and more flow.

-Never got to use rotifers, sieves are expensive....

- I feed a variety fresh water feeders. What a ever I can get my hands on really cichlids, mollies, ghost shrimp, etc
Whatever is on sale at my LFS. I have even gone to my local river, pond and lake to catch small fish. I gut all my feeders especially the ghost shrimp, because I find them a less nutritious option. I feed every 3-4 days 1 medium size 2- 3 inch fish or dozen ghost shrimp each.(note both of my frog fish are 4-6 inches in length). I do avoid feeding any gold fish or rosies. NOTE OWNING A FROG FISH IS NOT CHEAP LOL

- I gut load with a variety of frozen meats form Hikari (krill bloodworm brine shrimp etc)

-Current Paremeters
78 Degrees,
Fritz salt mix
PH 8.4
nitrates 2.5ppm
Phosphates 4 ppm (way to high I know working on it)
1.025 salinity
That's all I really test for

-Tank setup
Im running Fluval 32 gallon marine
2 AI Prime lights high blues low whites running for 12 hour period (ramp up and down periods)
a cheap Wave maker with some cheap heaters
stock pump


-BIG NEWS SECOND EGG
I noticed my other frogfish very swelled up early this morning thought ether he is about to poop or about to lay eggs.
took a nap to to return to another frog fish egg. I Don't know the best way to approach rearing of this egg. I no longer have any rotifers. Egg most likely not fertilized since I witnessed bloating and absence of bloating on both frog fish before and after egg appearance. It is very likely I own 2 females. I currently am looking if there is any chance the eggs will hatch unfertilized/asexually. I am very doubtful. I do not know what triggers spawning.

LMK what you guys think thanks a bunch!

@lion king
@GK3
@ISpeakForTheSeas

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hello all,
Update and to answer some questions!

-The first frog fish egg did not hatch
I placed it into a 1.5 gallon bucket with a air stone and heater. After about a week the egg sac deteriorated
monitored daily with ro/di top offs kept in low light conditions. Things I might do differently... bigger grow out area and more flow.

-Never got to use rotifers, sieves are expensive....

- I feed a variety fresh water feeders. What a ever I can get my hands on really cichlids, mollies, ghost shrimp, etc
Whatever is on sale at my LFS. I have even gone to my local river, pond and lake to catch small fish. I gut all my feeders especially the ghost shrimp, because I find them a less nutritious option. I feed every 3-4 days 1 medium size 2- 3 inch fish or dozen ghost shrimp each.(note both of my frog fish are 4-6 inches in length). I do avoid feeding any gold fish or rosies. NOTE OWNING A FROG FISH IS NOT CHEAP LOL

- I gut load with a variety of frozen meats form Hikari (krill bloodworm brine shrimp etc)

-Current Paremeters
78 Degrees,
Fritz salt mix
PH 8.4
nitrates 2.5ppm
Phosphates 4 ppm (way to high I know working on it)
1.025 salinity
That's all I really test for

-Tank setup
Im running Fluval 32 gallon marine
2 AI Prime lights high blues low whites running for 12 hour period (ramp up and down periods)
a cheap Wave maker with some cheap heaters
stock pump


-BIG NEWS SECOND EGG
I noticed my other frogfish very swelled up early this morning thought ether he is about to poop or about to lay eggs.
took a nap to to return to another frog fish egg. I Don't know the best way to approach rearing of this egg. I no longer have any rotifers. Egg most likely not fertilized since I witnessed bloating and absence of bloating on both frog fish before and after egg appearance. It is very likely I own 2 females. I currently am looking if there is any chance the eggs will hatch unfertilized/asexually. I am very doubtful. I do not know what triggers spawning.

LMK what you guys think thanks a bunch!

@lion king
@GK3
@ISpeakForTheSeas

I would not feed frogfish feeders but if mollies are tank raised- should be fine. Best food for then is a small shrimp once a week. Without confirmed male, eggs will not hatch. being free spawners, they lay eggs and await fertiliztion by male. Eggs if fertilized take 2-5 weeks to hatch with the yolk sacks still attached.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

It is very likely I own 2 females. I currently am looking if there is any chance the eggs will hatch unfertilized/asexually. I am very doubtful.

I am very doubtful as well - your only real chance would be if your fish turn out to be hermaphroditic in some way (which I don't think is the case with frogfish, but I can't find any papers on the matter to say for sure one way or another).

-Never got to use rotifers, sieves are expensive....

Yeah, if your eggs hatch you'll probably need the sieves to ensure the food you're offering is small enough though. To quote the link on Painted Frogfish culture:

"The larvae were raised through flexion in a 70L round tank in dense microalgae on ciliates, parvocalanus nauplii, size-sorted wild copepods and enriched rotifers."

"The larvae start to feed at 5 dph (2.3 mm TL)."

"A. pictus larvae are difficult to raise through flexion due to their small mouth, poor hunting ability, long preflexion period, and low incidence of air bladder inflation."

Painted Frogfish Culture - Fish Culture Research

Frogfish larvae were raised on ciliates, copepods, rotifers and artemia. The larval duration was 80 days. First record of frogfish larval culture.

www.frankbaensch.com

To give some idea of what that 2.3mm TL means for feeder size:

Yeah, the one I'm familiar with is "Apogon quadrifasciatus" (with the accepted name of Ostorhinchus fasciatus). They were kept at 29C (84.2F) and the eggs hatched after 5 days (I'd imagine at normal temps 7-8 would be about right).

"The average total length of the newly hatched larvae was 2.6mm with an average mouth gape of 160 μm."*

"most marine fish larvae consume prey that are only 20% of their total gape."**

So, assuming these guys are in a similar boat because they're in the same genus, they're likely going to need tiny feeds. As a note here, Bangaii Cardinals, Pterapogon kauderni, are actually in a different genus and - as mentioned above - seem to have different reproductive strategies than the "average" cardinalfish.
*Source:

Breeding and rearing of the two striped cardinalfish, Apogon quadrifasciatus (Cuvier, 1828) in captive condition - PubMed

The present study describes captive breeding, reproductive behavior and larval/juvenile rearing of Apogon quadrifasciatus. Spawning occurred 25 days after stocking in the breeding tank. Clutch size varied from 2500 to 3100. The males incubated the eggs, the incubation period was approximately...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

**Source:

Spawning, early development and first feeding in the gobiid fish Priolepis nocturna

Spawning, early development and first feeding in the gobiid fish Priolepis nocturna

www.academia.edu

Yeah, you'd need to screen the Parvocalanus culture prior to feeding them so that you're only offering the baby Parvocalanus pods (the 1st stage nauplii) to the fish larvae. This is what I was meaning when I brought up sieving the culture if the feeders were too large.

Adult Parvocalanus pods get up to 400 microns, whereas stage 1nauplii are about 40 microns. This means that they should be ~1/10 the size of the adult pods (which looks like it would fit with the ~20% gape rule). So, basically, before offering the feeders to the fish, strain them through a 45 or 50 micron mesh - this ensures that you're only getting the smallest available feeders (those that are small enough to fall through a 45 or 50 micron mesh), which should be more appropriately sized for the larval fish.

 

[lion king]

Hello all,
Update and to answer some questions!

-The first frog fish egg did not hatch
I placed it into a 1.5 gallon bucket with a air stone and heater. After about a week the egg sac deteriorated
monitored daily with ro/di top offs kept in low light conditions. Things I might do differently... bigger grow out area and more flow.

-Never got to use rotifers, sieves are expensive....

- I feed a variety fresh water feeders. What a ever I can get my hands on really cichlids, mollies, ghost shrimp, etc
Whatever is on sale at my LFS. I have even gone to my local river, pond and lake to catch small fish. I gut all my feeders especially the ghost shrimp, because I find them a less nutritious option. I feed every 3-4 days 1 medium size 2- 3 inch fish or dozen ghost shrimp each.(note both of my frog fish are 4-6 inches in length). I do avoid feeding any gold fish or rosies. NOTE OWNING A FROG FISH IS NOT CHEAP LOL

- I gut load with a variety of frozen meats form Hikari (krill bloodworm brine shrimp etc)

-Current Paremeters
78 Degrees,
Fritz salt mix
PH 8.4
nitrates 2.5ppm
Phosphates 4 ppm (way to high I know working on it)
1.025 salinity
That's all I really test for

-Tank setup
Im running Fluval 32 gallon marine
2 AI Prime lights high blues low whites running for 12 hour period (ramp up and down periods)
a cheap Wave maker with some cheap heaters
stock pump


-BIG NEWS SECOND EGG
I noticed my other frogfish very swelled up early this morning thought ether he is about to poop or about to lay eggs.
took a nap to to return to another frog fish egg. I Don't know the best way to approach rearing of this egg. I no longer have any rotifers. Egg most likely not fertilized since I witnessed bloating and absence of bloating on both frog fish before and after egg appearance. It is very likely I own 2 females. I currently am looking if there is any chance the eggs will hatch unfertilized/asexually. I am very doubtful. I do not know what triggers spawning.

LMK what you guys think thanks a bunch!

@lion king
@GK3
@ISpeakForTheSeas

I'm glad you are still caring for them well, believe me they are very tricky. One comment, I would be careful of feeding cichlids and indiscriminately feeding small fresh water fish. Mollies are not fresh water fish, they are brackish and related to same benthic species that they would eat in the wild. It would also be best to raise to your own, but we do the best we can, they will need a source of whole fish for the long term. The dangers of the other fish would pose some of the same risk associated with goldfish, high thiaminese content and wrong and/or elevated fat profile.

Does sound like you have 2 females, though you must be doing something right or you would not be getting the eggs at all. Make sure your mg and ca is at least reef level, and diet with high protein, which you are doing. Mg and ca are vital to laying eggs and them not binding. I would add some algae to food for your feeders, in the wild they would get those nutrients from the guts of their prey.

 

[chair]

Quick update* ANOTHER EGG!!
2nd egg has been disposed of
Third egg has been spawned this morning shortly after lights were turned on same as last time. (appears slightly smaller). I am pretty sure the other frog fish spawned it this time. They both seem to be very near each other when I find egg sac.. considering trying to see if it will produce any fish..
@lion king have any of your frog fish spawned eggs?

@ISpeakForTheSeas
@GK3

 

[lion king]

Quick update* ANOTHER EGG!!
2nd egg has been disposed of
Third egg has been spawned this morning shortly after lights were turned on same as last time. (appears slightly smaller). I am pretty sure the other frog fish spawned it this time. They both seem to be very near each other when I find egg sac.. considering trying to see if it will produce any fish..
@lion king have any of your frog fish spawned eggs?

@ISpeakForTheSeas
@GK3

I've never had frogfish spawn but my rhino has routinely spawned for 5 years, and my pygmy waspfish for 4 years. In my waspfish tank there are 2 females and a male, I'm not sure if any eggs were ever fertilized. I've never created an environment for breeding or focused on breeding. I hatched some cuttlefish eggs once and that was enough for me to know that hatching eggs and rearing fry was not for me.

 

[chair]

4th egg spawned!
On a side note my frog fish both stopped eating showing no interest in ether fish shrimp(7 days). Should I be concerned?? @lion king has this ever happen to you. I read online that they can go on "hunger strikes". LMK thank you!

@ISpeakForTheSeas

 

[lion king]

"Hunger strikes", there is always a reason. 1st rule out any introduction of internal parasites, feeding salt water fish can not only be a vehicle for internal parasites, but also other diseases. The only fish I recommend is mollies or guppies, any other fish could be devoid of the proper nutrients or even bind in the gut causing bloat. While some will warn about parasites from mollies and guppies, I have never seen it feeding dozens of predators over 20 years. Water quality, high nitrates may be a cause to throw off feeding, I've tried to manage my nitrates below 30ppm and have seen a difference when nitrates got high compared to when nitrates where managed lower. Adding a macro algae reactor or refugium can be a good addition to mange nitrates. Feeding too often can trigger them to go on a self imposed fast. Not receiving the proper nutrition from the foods being fed, their natural instincts will be to refuse food that is not value to them, so access their diet. Are you still including live foods in their diet? Mg may be too low, a higher level of mg may assist in digestion, I maintain 1400ppm in my predator tanks and boost up to 1600ppm if I suspect an issue. Anglers poop like dogs are you seeing waste consistently. Feeding weekly to even every 10 days is ok for an adult angler, making sure they are fed well at each feeding, so still within the range. At 2 weeks I would get concerned, at 3 weeks it's likely past the point of no return.

 

[chair]

Firstly thanks for the fast response. Both anglers appear normal no bloating I've been feeding only freshwater fish/ shrimps. As of late i rotate cichlids and ghost shrimp (gut loaded). I don't feed frozen. I Feed consistently every 4 days. I'm running 1250 mg in my tank, with 1ppm phosphate and like no detectable nitrates. Usually my red angler is really aggressive eater and chases everything it sees, while my purple angler is more about waiting for best time to strike. Yet both anglers have lost interest in both fish and shrimps. I will keep you updated and thank you.
@lionking

 

[lion king]

I really would stop feeding the cichlids, these fish can not live long on foods not providing the required nutrients. Mollies and guppies are related to the same family of benthic species they feed on in the wild. There is a reason I do recommend these fish, and they have been proven over time to be the safest live fish. It is routine for predatory fish to start refusing food that do not meet their needs, they are not like humans that will eat big macs until the day they die. Some fish or even inverts for that matter also may not digest properly, this can cause constipation and binding. That binding causes bloat and death, but bloat usually kill more quickly. I would stop offering the cichlids, raise the mg to 1600ppm, and give it a few days. Another note, make sure you are not getting wild temp swings, that happens this time of year and can throw off their metabolism.

 

[chair]

Update on my frogfish both are still alive. I got the purple one to eat a few ghost shrimps, but the orange frogfish still hasn't eaten. My purple frogfish has always been a picky finnicky eater but the orange is normal super aggressive to all food. Still worried my mg is good but I've noticed my salinity got a lil low 1.022 could that affect his appetite. Im slowly getting that back up to 1.025. The only other thing I could think is that about a month ago I lowered the tank temp after I got a new thermometer( it was 83) now 78. My old thermometer was off. If i did throw off his metabolism is there anything I can do?

Side note: I raised MG and no longer feeding cichlids

@lion king

 

[lion king]

Stability or slow changes are necessary, you don't want any drastic changes in anything. The high temp could be problematic, I prefer toward the lower temps, as low as 72-74. The sg is no prob, keeping them in a fowlr at 1.020 is common, going back up should be slowly. Maintaining stable conditions with a boost in mg and only feeding ghosties, guppies, or mollies as live food offerings, as well as any human grade dead seafood they would eat is really all you can do.

 

[chair]

Bad news I woke up to today and heard a splash from my tank and found my older purple frog fish stuck to the wave maker. I turned it off quickly and he is still alive swimming franticly around my tank. but it looks like he has white caps covering his eyes and a bunch of shedding skin. he is also breathing heavy. He appears to be blind D:

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Disease really isn't my thing, so hopefully someone knowledgeable will comment with a diagnosis/treatment ideas for you.

 

[lion king]

Does sound like a protazoan type disease, velvet would produce shedding skin, not a prognosis. Once anglers get to this condition, honestly, there is no recovery. Anglers are hard to diagnose protazoan disease because of the texture of their skin, it is camouflaged until it is too late. Although some have said they have used copper with anglers, no one has ever produced a live example of one treated. While hypo may be able to treat ick, it can not treat velvet. Even if caught early I've never seen one survive velvet or copper treatment. Hypo must be performed very diligently, and most fail, every one I know of has failed. With hypo it needs to be done at 1st intro with a healthy individual that is eating, it needs to be done slowly and water conditions must be monitored and 0 ammonia maintained at all times. hypo would only treat ick.

Disease not only can be introduced by marine fish, but anything that has been kept in a fish system. LFS are so sloppy today they keep their inverts, corals, and micro algaes plumbed into the same system with their fish. While protazoan disease can not affect inverts and such, they can hitchhike into another system and infect fish.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Bad news I woke up to today and heard a splash from my tank and found my older purple frog fish stuck to the wave maker. I turned it off quickly and he is still alive swimming franticly around my tank. but it looks like he has white caps covering his eyes and a bunch of shedding skin. he is also breathing heavy. He appears to be blind D:

Sounds like either flukes, or bacterial.
Water quality- What is ammonia and nitrate and ph level and how are you testing?
Shedding skin is generally bacterial or mucus separation, even brooklynella.
Are fish breathing normal or labored?
The purple may be becomming Moribund

 

[chair]

Update on the Frog fish it looks like he is super stressed, I don't know how long he was on the bottom of the wave maker, when I turned it off a bunch of skin particles fell. but he keeps aimlessly swimming into the walls of tank and to the surfaces. It happened pretty quick over on night period. maybe it had something to do with his lack of appetite over the past week. now sometimes he has heavy breathing other times he is calm. PH 8.3 nitrates zero phosphates .4 D:

 

[chair]

below