Frogspawn bailout concerns and health condition evaluation needed

[taikss]

Need advice with a frogspawn. It seems that it has bailed out one of the heads (the one on the right) and i'm wondering why.

The history with this particular coral is that it was in a dead tank and suffered a lot. I got it after it spent some time in a transition tank and recovered a bit. The extension of the polyps i see now i've not seen before, at first it was abour 30-40% open in comparison to what you see now, so i was assuming it's feeling good.

the head that's dead facing the camera, was dead before i got the coral, probably didn't make it in the initial dirty tank.

I'm feeling that the coral's sufferings mean that it's recovering very slowly and will probably take ages before it'll start looking like a normal frogspawn, but i really don't get today's bail out on one of the heads. Thinking if i should be worried for "more to come" in that regard? Or maybe the overall looks of that coral already suggest it's doing really bad? I personally only have 2 LPS' and no experience with them before, so any advice more than welcome.

My water parameters showed elevated phosphates (0,2 and up from 0,1 in 2weeks) and the nitrates have been high all long with around 10-11 (but stable on other hand).

PH 8.1-8.2
Calc 410 (before adding tropic marine's bio calc 3 days ago)
Mag 1450
ammonia 0,05
nitrites 0,025
alk 3,5meq/l or 9,8dKH (this actually went up from 3,25meq/l last measure and i don't get how)

 

[MRRBW]

I've had this happen to some torch corals of mine as well. I've managed to salvage one of my torches. I lost 4/6 heads and almost lost the last two. The problems i faced were flow, and high nutrients. Water changes saved the last two heads and they are growing back slowly. I find they take a long time to recover. One phase of the loss for was also just after I lost a fish and a starfish. I didn't realize until I started losing the heads off the torch. That said, you tank shows ammonia and nitrites, so first thing that stands out to me you need some water changes to get the water parameters in check. good luck and be patient

 

[taikss]

looks like i found the reason. Had a malfunction with the test (more of my own fault) - phosphates 0,7 :|

 

[taikss]

I've had this happen to some torch corals of mine as well. I've managed to salvage one of my torches. I lost 4/6 heads and almost lost the last two. The problems i faced were flow, and high nutrients. Water changes saved the last two heads and they are growing back slowly. I find they take a long time to recover. One phase of the loss for was also just after I lost a fish and a starfish. I didn't realize until I started losing the heads off the torch. That said, you tank shows ammonia and nitrites, so first thing that stands out to me you need some water changes to get the water parameters in check. good luck and be patient

btw, haven't understood one thing - if the bailout happens and the head is left empty, will it grow anything back once the parameters get better?

 

[WWIII]

btw, haven't understood one thing - if the bailout happens and the head is left empty, will it grow anything back once the parameters get better?

Unfortunately not, but new heads will grow in other areas! I have never seen them grow back in the same spot (head) of a previous bailout or death.

 

[MRRBW]

looks like i found the reason. Had a malfunction with the test (more of my own fault) - phosphates 0,7 :|

high phosphate doesn't help. But don't ignore the ammonia and nitrite, they should be zero. Maybe there is a lack of beneficial bacteria in your system too. As for once the heads bail, I have tried to have them grab and grow, but I have never been successful so far.

 

[taikss]

But don't ignore the ammonia and nitrite, they should be zero. Maybe there is a lack of beneficial bacteria in your system too. As for once the heads bail, I have tried to have them grab and grow, but I have never been successful so far.

hold on, isn't nitrite 0,025 something that's border line undetectable. I have the salifert test and it allows you to test very very low regions like 0,01 and 0,025. the test colour was somewhere between those two, i always thought that levels below 0,05 are considered barely detectable and wouldn't be a concern.

Same with ammonia which i thought below 0,1 would be okay.

 

[Zack K]

hold on, isn't nitrite 0,025 something that's border line undetectable. I have the salifert test and it allows you to test very very low regions like 0,01 and 0,025. the test colour was somewhere between those two, i always thought that levels below 0,05 are considered barely detectable and wouldn't be a concern.

Same with ammonia which i thought below 0,1 would be okay.

Any amounts of ammonia are deadly. 0.00 should be ammonia. Anything above that is a no go. Nitrite you can get away with low number, but that is showing your tank has t finished cycling yet. We are going to need a little tank background.
How big is the tank
What kind of lights are you using
How old is the tank
What kind of filter/sump are you running
Refugium or not
Skimmer or no

High nitrates and Phosphates are not a _big_ problem. Can they cause problems when rapidly changing, yes, but I have 2.0 Phosphates and 160.0ppM Nitrates and not a thing is wrong.
-Zack

 

[taikss]

The tank is 245g plus the sump of a tad less than 40g and a 4g water change tank.
I do have a functioning refugium with caulerpa that finally started growing well about 2-3weeks ago (before that was growing very slowly)
The skimmer is tunze 9410dc which i think is a really good one.
the lights are LED's 2x165w that i currently run @ 85% blue and 65% whites. was using 2x80w T5s and 250w metal halides before that (about 3-4months ago). Just finished the introduction period. Keep the lights on for 12h a day, currently no solution for any decent cycles, so it's just a on-off option.
The sump is a wet-dry with bioballs that i just start to remove as i can't get the nitrates to go any lower and everyone is saying that the tech of bio balls is obsolete, esp if you have a decent skimmer and a fuge. I removed first 3 balls yday, so the ammonia is not from there, can't be related to any spikes in that sense.

what the ammonia can be assigned to is the diamond goby who commited a suicide last week, but was sifting sand before that for 3 weeks. he sterred up a lot of it and the detrius inside the sandbed must have caused something. The problem i had with the SB was cyano, not a whole lot of it, but just an emerging colour showing signs it could erupt at some point.

The thing with the cyano can be assigned to what happened when i got the tank (first year more or less). At first i inherited it with what was there and there basically was nothing. The flow was non existent as the pumps were dead and not enough, had no CUC. I changed everything in that tank except for liverock, sand and the frame. Therefore i would assign problems to the period before i got it and the first half a year i had it.

 

[ciscomania]

I don't think your diamond goby is the issue. I could understand if you said the goby died yesterday or something but something that died last week and your tank still hasn't gone down to zero tells me you just don't have enough beneficial bacteria or live rock in your tank for proper nitrogen cycle. You shouldn't be able to detect any ammonia in a properly cycled tank at any time.

 

[Zack K]

You diamond goby_shouldn’t_have been a problem. It does sound like though that you either:
A, Don’t have enough Rock in the tank for biofiltration
B, have something large dead in and amongst the rock work.
C, just don’t have enough beneficial bacteria for your livestock.
To help with you Original question though, where was the Frogspawn placed? High or low light, high or low flow? How long have you had it? Frogspawn can take some time to settle in and ultimately prefer lower light (100ish par) and almost little to no flow.
-Zack,

 

[taikss]

Bought a new ammonium test and just tested. As you can see below, the level is <0,05 and the liquid yellow compared to the greener comparison colour. I’m assuming ammonium is not the culprit. Phosphates are out too after two sessions of elimi-phos.

Any other ideas?

As i said, nitrites were between 0,01 and 0,025, so barely detectable too.

 

[taikss]

You diamond goby_shouldn’t_have been a problem. It does sound like though that you either:

To help with you Original question though, where was the Frogspawn placed? High or low light, high or low flow? How long have you had it? Frogspawn can take some time to settle in and ultimately prefer lower light (100ish par) and almost little to no flow.
-Zack,

i read that it likes moderate light and moder-lower flow. so i placed in the sandbed to a location where flow is almost minimal (i have a strong flow in the tank overall), but it does sit under the light on the sandbed, so about 250-300 par perhaps?

i've had the thing for about two months, but changed the location after thorough reading. It didn'tact anyhow different before the relocation, was exactly the same.

last relocation about 2 weeks ago, was between the liverock before, now on the sandbed.

 

[Zack K]

250par at the sand bed! You must have some killer lights or a shallow tank! I personally would say you could do 1 of two things. Move him to a “shaded” are where he is getting a little less light, or you can wait it out and see if he adjusts. He_should_ adjust with time, but each specimen is different
-Zack

 

[SashimiTurtle]

I'm with Zack. 250 par on the sand for 12 hours a day... you're cooking it. That's gotta be close to 600-700 at the surface. Frogspawn don't need (and can't handle) that much light. If you're running 12 hours, maybe 75-100 par and VERY gently flow. Those long tentacle euphyllia really get ripped up by those sharp edges on the skeleton in high flow. I run my tank at 250-300 par at the surface and 50-100 on the sand for 12 hours and I'm having good success with that, altho I think I have too much flow for the long tentacle LPS.

 

[taikss]

alright guys - taking your advice and getting myself a par meter at first. could very well be that i'm miles off with my assumption in regards to the pars.

 

[taikss]

Second head bailed out. Although this one i always considered dead as it was barely alive long before it got to me.

Moved the coral to a location with no direct light and even less flow.

Got the phosphates down to around 0,03. Nitrates still around 12, but the rest of parameters should be fine.

 

[Zack K]

Second head bailed out. Although this one i always considered dead as it was barely alive long before it got to me.

Moved the coral to a location with no direct light and even less flow.

Got the phosphates down to around 0,03. Nitrates still around 12, but the rest of parameters should be fine.

Those numbers are perfect.
-Zack

 

[taikss]

Thanks Zack, i will just try to be patient and get a parmeter to play around and know my tank better for the future.