German coral farmer that runs "dirty" tanks

[Raphael Dalmeida]

Hi guys,

Just watched a video on YouTube where a guy interviews this German guy who owns a coral farm and supposedly run dirty tanks and has amazing coral growth.

It seems a bit against many things I've read.

If we are talking about Softies and LPS what they talk about on the video seems legit and possibly scientifically true ?

Let me know what you guys think if you watch the video.

Link to the video below (don't know how to hyperlink it):

 

[Gill the 3rd]

Yea I watched that last night. Those corals were crazy. I am curious to know what he considers a "dirty" tank exactly, like what are his water parameters?

 

[Raphael Dalmeida]

Yea I watched that last night. Those corals were crazy. I am curious to know what he considers a "dirty" tank exactly, like what are his water parameters?

Yeah I'm curious as well what parameters.

Wonder if the quantity of softies maybe works similar to macroalgae draining the nutrients?

 

[Nano_Man]

Wow some place he has MONEY

 

[blecki]

The title of that video is so misleading. "Making a Coral Reef Ecosystem (With No Filter)" - every tank in the video has rock in it.

Video is just targeted at the layman who expects a 'coral reef' to require some massive room full of equipment that doesn't exist in nature.

 

[Aquariumaddictuk]

Crazy stuff.i doubt he tests the water hence no parameters given.it clearly works for him!

 

[Timfish]

Can't say I'm surprised, there's been a lot of dogma that's built up over the years in the reefing hobby. Since he's not running a lot of stuff that is artificially and arbitrarily altering microbial processes in his system the food webs are likely closer to what corals are expecting. I'm reminded of a couple quotes I've come across by experts who have spent time studying reefs ecosystems:

"When I see the colors of some of these low nutrient tanks, I can't help but be reminded of bleached coral reefs. It should therefore not come as a surprise that feeding corals in such systems becomes a very important component in these systems. Though reefs are often catagorized as nutrient "deserts" the influx of nutrients in the form of particulates and plankton is quite high when the total volume of water passing over a reef is taken into consideration.

Our crystal-clear aquaria do not come close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs. And so when we create low-nutrient water conditions, we still have to deal with the rest of a much more complex puzzle. Much like those who run their aquarium water temperature close to the thermal maximums of corals walk a narrow tight rope, I can't help but think that low-nutrient aquariums may be headed down a similar path." Charles Delbeck, Coral Nov/Dec 2010, pg 127

"Imported nutrients are usually transported to reefs from rivers; but if there are no rivers, as with reefs remote from land masses, nutrients can only come from surface ocean circulation. Often this supply is poor, and thus the vast ocean expanses have been refered to as "nutrient deserts". The Indo-Pacific has many huge atolls in these supposed deserts which testify to the resilience of reefs, but the corals themselves may lack the lush appearance of those of more fertile waters. Many reefs have another major supply of inorganic nutrients as, under certain conditions, surface currents moving against a reef face may cause deep ocean water to be drawn to the surface. This "upwelled" water is often rich in phosphorus and other essential chemicals." J. E. N. Veron "Corals of Austrailia and the Indo-Pacific" pg 30

 

[SFALReefer]

He has skimmers and trickle filters (assuming algae scrubbers), and does water changes. I suppose literally he has no filters, but he does have processes to remove waste.

 

[hexcolor reef]

Impossible

No but I’m a firm believer of high nutrients but to not see algae is insane.
I see there’s really no high profile coral so this system must not work with all coral (more expensive rare coral)

 

[blaxsun]

What's even more amazing than his setup is the fact he hand-delivers all his customer coral orders...!

 

[Mr_Knightley]

What's funny is I've been considering starting a business nearly identical to this, coral troughs and hand delivery etc. Really cool to see it can be done.

 

[Raphael Dalmeida]

Impossible

No but I’m a firm believer of high nutrients but to not see algae is insane.
I see there’s really no high profile coral so this system must not work with all coral (more expensive rare coral)

What is the science behind coral and nutrients ? If you exclude SPS.

From what I've read high phosphate is not great for calcification process, while high nitrate possibly around Algae growth and Browning on SPS.

Are those the only issues? And perhaps what he's done there makes sense as long as he somehow keeps algae in check?

 

[jda]

300 T5 bulbs. Wow.

He does have a filter - they show a trickle filter that looks eight feet tall and six feet wide. Skimmers are filters too. The title is misleading a bit.

I love that he takes the cast-off CB clowns and ugly fish. Ugly fish need love too.

If you want the short version, he never talks about nitrate or phosphates, but about having nutrients. If you feed 1.5 kilos a day, you are going to have plenty of nutrients likely in forms more available to the corals than no3 and po4 that the YouTube guy mentions.

Dude must already have more money that he needs if he drives all over the EU on mini vacations to hand deliver Xenia, Setosa and Green Toadstools.

High no3 and po4 does slow calcification, but it might not matter at all. It is plenty clear that some corals don't care at all while others can slow down quite a lot. Lots of what he keeps does not calcify and are not truly coral - when you want to study or read about this, true coral are stonies and leave skeletons and softies are something else. Without knowing this guys no3 and po4 levels there is no need to speculate, but he does not keep any kind of difficult corals and the few stags that he has look miserable and they probably are not high maintenance stuff.

The short thing about "nutrients" is not that short, but there are building blocks of life like nitrogen and phosphorous and energy like carbon and sugars. Carbon and sugars mostly come from the light through the zoox but some corals can catch bacteria and stuff and assimilate their energy. Nitrogen and phosphrous are building blocks of life, not energy. Nitrate is not the same thing as nitrogen and phosphate is not the same thing as phosphorous. There are many different forms of nitrogen in a reef tank with ammonia being the most desired, then nitrite and nitrate last with nearly all hosts having to convert it back to ammonia for their symbionts to use it at a cost of 30-70% extra energy (nobody knows for sure). Organically bound phosphorous is easy to assimilate by coral. Meta/polyphosphates are next since corals can store them for use later, or use them now and then attach unwanted things to the other compounds when they expel them. Orthophosphate is usable, but some thing that it is the least used form. The two things that most people test for in nitrate and ortho phoshpate are likely the least necessary things to corals and often just an indicator stuff that has accumulated and not stuff that is available.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Here's another video of this beautiful reef:

 

[sawdonkey]

Can't say I'm surprised, there's been a lot of dogma that's built up over the years in the reefing hobby. Since he's not running a lot of stuff that is artificially and arbitrarily altering microbial processes in his system the food webs are likely closer to what corals are expecting. I'm reminded of a couple quotes I've come across by experts who have spent time studying reefs ecosystems:

"When I see the colors of some of these low nutrient tanks, I can't help but be reminded of bleached coral reefs. It should therefore not come as a surprise that feeding corals in such systems becomes a very important component in these systems. Though reefs are often catagorized as nutrient "deserts" the influx of nutrients in the form of particulates and plankton is quite high when the total volume of water passing over a reef is taken into consideration.

Our crystal-clear aquaria do not come close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs. And so when we create low-nutrient water conditions, we still have to deal with the rest of a much more complex puzzle. Much like those who run their aquarium water temperature close to the thermal maximums of corals walk a narrow tight rope, I can't help but think that low-nutrient aquariums may be headed down a similar path." Charles Delbeck, Coral Nov/Dec 2010, pg 127

"Imported nutrients are usually transported to reefs from rivers; but if there are no rivers, as with reefs remote from land masses, nutrients can only come from surface ocean circulation. Often this supply is poor, and thus the vast ocean expanses have been refered to as "nutrient deserts". The Indo-Pacific has many huge atolls in these supposed deserts which testify to the resilience of reefs, but the corals themselves may lack the lush appearance of those of more fertile waters. Many reefs have another major supply of inorganic nutrients as, under certain conditions, surface currents moving against a reef face may cause deep ocean water to be drawn to the surface. This "upwelled" water is often rich in phosphorus and other essential chemicals." J. E. N. Veron "Corals of Austrailia and the Indo-Pacific" pg 30

Well, the opposite it true too. Too many nutrients and your corals brown out, especially acros, which is likely why he has none.

I like how the narrator guy in the video is listing the coral species and toward the end he goes, “xenia, montipora, asterina stars, mojano, aptaisia,….”

 

[Raphael Dalmeida]

Here's another video of this beautiful reef:

This video seems to do a better job at explaining his method, really interesting - while limited to certain species he probably found his sweet spot.

Although I also liked the other video as it's more personable and we get to hear directly from the owner.

Would love to visit such place and learn from it.

 

[Raphael Dalmeida]

Well, the opposite it true too. Too many nutrients and your corals brown out, especially acros, which is likely why he has none.

I like how the narrator guy in the video is listing the coral species and toward the end he goes, “xenia, montipora, asterina stars, mojano, aptaisia,….”

You have a point but that's probably why he is selective with what corals he breeds, likely the ones that thrive in these conditions.
5,000 golden torches, inshallah!

 

[Hans-Werner]

Impossible

No but I’m a firm believer of high nutrients but to not see algae is insane.
I see there’s really no high profile coral so this system must not work with all coral (more expensive rare coral)

I have met him a few times, once in a shop as he just delivered corals. Yes, it's true, he mainly sells Goniopora, Euphyllia, red Entacmea and leather corals. He says, not all corals are growing in his tanks. He tries corals that seem promising for breeding to him and if it works and a coral grows fast enough for good sells in his system he will breed it, otherwise he will give up this coral.

In general he has his broodstock corals and there is little change in his range.

In this way his customers get only the toughest corals which minimizes losses, which is not bad I think. Some may think this is not the best business idea for a shop, but I think for a mixed range with other corals also, it works very well.

 

[Timfish]

Well, the opposite it true too. Too many nutrients and your corals brown out, especially acros, which is likely why he has none.

I like how the narrator guy in the video is listing the coral species and toward the end he goes, “xenia, montipora, asterina stars, mojano, aptaisia,….”

You should do a better job of checking your facts before responding. You might also want to ask the narrator why he left out genus (like acros) that Mr. Wendel is growing.

You can download a copy of his catalog here: Mr. Wendels availability list

 

[Snoopy 67]

I was lucky enough to be there in person 2011.
It did not have all that growth @ the time.