Get rid of hair algae
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spidercrab
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I guess there really are 2 options. Try to beat the dinos by raising nutrients (currently doing) or kill the hair algae with keto and worry about the dinos after. Option 1 is lower risk. If it doesnt work after a few weeks I will consider keto or just not worry about it. Neither of these algae seem to actually hurt the coral as long as I dose to keep the nutrients up. INVERTS will not work with dinos! I see several people recommending that over and over!
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spidercrab
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I could easily try and starve the algae considering there are no fish in the tank. In fact I did that for over a month. All of my coral began to bleach and die first while the algae didn't grow and some did die a lot of it just remained and that is when dinos joined the party.After dosing PO4 I had a lot of issues with algae and I was able to battle them using the following principles:
BTW: DO NOT look at test results of PO4 and NO3 when you have algae. Cause they will be most likely 0 as all the algae are using it up.
How to battle them:
1) Find a way to export PO4 efficiently. Examples: GFO, (DIY) Algae Scrubber, etc
2) Remove as much of the algae as possible. When they used all PO4/NO3 they are starting to become softer and you can just pull it out most of the time. Or use a tooth brush to brush everything off. It will spread in the tank but when you are battling it, it does not really matter. Also it can help to leave a few easy to access spots in the display tank to grow the algae when trying to battle the rocks. So you focus growth on an easy to remove spot in the tank.
3) Create a water solution of NaOH. This is a liquid that increases PH so you can only dose a small amount of it (a few ml per day) and apply it WITH ALL PUMPS OFF directly on the algae. (I glued 2 syringes on an acrylic pipe so I could apply it directly to the algae) It's heavier than water and will show as a white liquid (see picture, NaOH added to the algae on the top of the rock) after being applied after a few seconds. Make sure you do not apply it on corals because they will die off too. I apply it during the night when lights are off. It will change the color of the GHA from brownish to light green over 2 days and 3rd day algae on that spot are gone and be gone for a few weeks. Do that till all algae are gone and you only have it growing on the spots you want.
Result: You will battle the algae so they will release PO4/NO3 again when they die off. You use GFO/Algae scrubber/WCs/other methods to get those nutrients out of the tank and you will get an easier way to prevent algae from growing in the display tank and have nutrients exported out.
If you do not do all 3 steps at the same time, you will never win the battle.
That's the thing, starving them isn't the solution as this will release nutrients again and other algae that remain will use those nutrients again so they will not starve anytime soon. So you need a way to remove it from the tank efficiently and only let part of it die off and have ways like GFO to get that out the system. And at the end have one place where they grow (like a scrubber) and ways to fight them in the tank.
PhreeByrd
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I have to say that I don't really have a definitive answer, or at least not a prescription. I can also say that I once had a really awful infestation of bryopsis and derbesia (often regarded as GHA), but I no longer have any visible in the tank.
Along the way I made every mistake and tried every miracle chemical or method I could find to try to get rid of the stuff. None of them really worked in the long run. Finally, a wise LFS owner told me to be patient, keep things stable, and the algae would eventually burn itself out. It took more than a year, but he was absolutely right.
The secret was simply manual removal, and I do not mean scrubbing rocks, which does not completely remove anything and only creates millions of little bits of algae to re-infest the tank. To begin each water change (2 week schedule), I used a siphon and long tweezers to manually remove as much of the healthy algae as possible. It was not important (nor possible) to remove every bit of algae from the rock. Just get the most algae mass possible. Along with improving the tank's appearance, this removed tons of the exact nutrients that the algae was using for growth. I never changed the lighting, and stopped adding anything to the tank except food (frozen, unrinsed, 4 days per week). All of the corals, fish and inverts survived just fine. Gradually the algae dissipated, until it simply disappeared. It has not returned after almost 20 years.
I am convinced that a stable and diverse biological ecosystem will out-compete algae for nutrients, and that this will naturally happen by itself. There is live algae in that tank. If I remove a rock and place it in a new, "sterile" tank, some algae will eventually start to grow on that rock. But in the original tank, the stable combination of microbes, grazers, and nutrient levels keeps its growth to near zero. It will only grow, and only very slowly, in places like the overflow, where no grazers can reach and nutrients are prone to collect at higher levels.
Along the way I made every mistake and tried every miracle chemical or method I could find to try to get rid of the stuff. None of them really worked in the long run. Finally, a wise LFS owner told me to be patient, keep things stable, and the algae would eventually burn itself out. It took more than a year, but he was absolutely right.
The secret was simply manual removal, and I do not mean scrubbing rocks, which does not completely remove anything and only creates millions of little bits of algae to re-infest the tank. To begin each water change (2 week schedule), I used a siphon and long tweezers to manually remove as much of the healthy algae as possible. It was not important (nor possible) to remove every bit of algae from the rock. Just get the most algae mass possible. Along with improving the tank's appearance, this removed tons of the exact nutrients that the algae was using for growth. I never changed the lighting, and stopped adding anything to the tank except food (frozen, unrinsed, 4 days per week). All of the corals, fish and inverts survived just fine. Gradually the algae dissipated, until it simply disappeared. It has not returned after almost 20 years.
I am convinced that a stable and diverse biological ecosystem will out-compete algae for nutrients, and that this will naturally happen by itself. There is live algae in that tank. If I remove a rock and place it in a new, "sterile" tank, some algae will eventually start to grow on that rock. But in the original tank, the stable combination of microbes, grazers, and nutrient levels keeps its growth to near zero. It will only grow, and only very slowly, in places like the overflow, where no grazers can reach and nutrients are prone to collect at higher levels.
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spidercrab
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This tank has actually been up for 7 years now! This problem with hair algae has been going on for almost 2 years now and dinos joined in about 8 months ago. Cant have a CUC with dinos.
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spidercrab
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All of my coral are already fading in color from zero nutrients. If i add GFO they will be gone in probably 2-3 days.
If they are already fading, they are probably already lost anyway. You cannot dose and put in some chemicals to kill the algae because it will just start growing somewhere else. You could use coral foods like amino acids and hope they are enough to keep them alive. It’s also possible that there is already algae growing on the corals which will kill it too.
Get a very small yellow tang and dose hydrogen peroxide. The peroxide will stunt the algae from growing and the tang will cleanup the rest. Get your nutrients in line and the dinos should disappear as well. The tangs poo will keep your nutrients up enough to help with the dinos as well.
You are getting a ton of well intentioned, but radically conflicting advice. 'Tis the nature of forums.
The intersection of big GHA and Dinos must be uncommon. I've dealt with each in the field with success, but never both in the same tank at the same time. Many can contribute good info on each individual nuisance. In isolation there are proven established protocols for each.
So where am I going... I guess the best question to ask is "Which problem should I address first: Dinos or GHA?"
To me, it is dinos first (dosing nutrients, UV, run GAC) and GHA afterwards. Reef Flux is a gimme.
Pick a plan, execute for a week. Let us know. Best wishes!
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spidercrab
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They bounce back within a few days as soon as I get the nutrients up.
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spidercrab
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I had a yellow tang in there for quite a while. He did well but as soon as dinos came along he wouldnt touch the algae again. I sold him about 2 months ago.
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spidercrab
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I think you are right. I am going after the dinos first by boosting the nutrients up. Ive dosed a ton of nitrate and phosphate already and it was detectable today though still quite low at just 3 ppm. I have seen a good cyano bloom coming on and even covering a good section of the tank where there were dinos, so it is safe to say that cyano did kill the dinos in that section.
PhreeByrd
Active Member
Interesting. I took a cue from your original post stating that you had zero nutrients for 'months on end'.
That's not normal, IME, even for a fishless frag tank, and signals, at least to me, that things are not in a good balance.
I can see and empathize with how frustrating this situation is, though. I hope you can get it straightened out.
You know dinos also use nutrients right? So they will probably be boosted as well. Problem with dino's, cyano or GHA is that they grow when you have an imbalance for some time. That allows them to grow while they otherwise would die off on their own. Problem is when you add things to correct an imbalance, you forget that that imbalance is already there and would fuel the things you do not want. Are you dosing any carbon? Probably also related.
So yes you do not want undetectable NO3 and PO4, UNLESS you already have an imbalance and it's growing the things you do not want.
Wow I waded through this thread and it's like a sick man asking for help back in the 1200's. It comes off like Laddie what you need is some mercury tablets, No he needs some leeches, No Bleed him no give him some Vitarays. I know everyone means well and I know that many of these treatments have worked for some people under certain circumstances and in half of the posts there are areas that IMHO are dead on.
Now this is just my suggestion to add to the many others, but it has been said before in this thread and kind of passed over because nobody likes a long slow process and would rather drop in a bottle of magic elixir.
Hair Algae cannot survive without Light, Nitrate and Phosphate. Turning off the lights is out of the question since your already stressed corals will die. Also it will do nothing but release the dead Algae's Nitrate and Phosphates back into the water just waiting for the lights to come on so they can start growing again. Nitrates and Phosphates that are at almost Zero are not really Zero if you still have hair Algae. Yes they are consuming it as fast as it is added/created but I have also seen hair Algae die off due to starvation and the yellowing bits that break off end back up in the water and decay providing food for what is remaining. You have now created a self sustaining Algae farm that requires very little extra nutrients to keep going. They are in effect cannibals living off their own dead.
So as was suggested before what I think you need to do, is first go back to your normal routine that was keeping your corals healthy. Then go in there by hand and remove all the algae that you can, especially the ones that are near your corals. Make sure you have filter socks running and try to vacuum out any small pieces that are left behind. Next I would quickly move onto running a phosphate reactor and your choice of method for removing Nitrate. Maybe a Sulfur reactor, Vodka dosing, Biopellets etc. Once that is in place let the Algae in the tank grow in areas that are not an issue and just do a daily removal of anything near your corals. Keep watching the untouched strands as at some point they will loose that dark green color and start to yellow out and get transparent near the tips. That is a sign that you are truly reaching near zero nutrients, More flow, More light can actually speed up the process, helping the algae to grow and use up all the nutrients faster.
When the Hair Algae really start to loose its dark color its time to remove the remaining long strands that are left. Once this is done run some carbon in a reactor to remove all the yellowing and do a 25% water change then do another 1 week later. Make sure the water is Absolute Zero TDS or you will start to see the Agae come back. At this point your tank may have small tufts of algae around the place, just keep on hand picking them out until nothing is left.
Now this is just my suggestion to add to the many others, but it has been said before in this thread and kind of passed over because nobody likes a long slow process and would rather drop in a bottle of magic elixir.
Hair Algae cannot survive without Light, Nitrate and Phosphate. Turning off the lights is out of the question since your already stressed corals will die. Also it will do nothing but release the dead Algae's Nitrate and Phosphates back into the water just waiting for the lights to come on so they can start growing again. Nitrates and Phosphates that are at almost Zero are not really Zero if you still have hair Algae. Yes they are consuming it as fast as it is added/created but I have also seen hair Algae die off due to starvation and the yellowing bits that break off end back up in the water and decay providing food for what is remaining. You have now created a self sustaining Algae farm that requires very little extra nutrients to keep going. They are in effect cannibals living off their own dead.
So as was suggested before what I think you need to do, is first go back to your normal routine that was keeping your corals healthy. Then go in there by hand and remove all the algae that you can, especially the ones that are near your corals. Make sure you have filter socks running and try to vacuum out any small pieces that are left behind. Next I would quickly move onto running a phosphate reactor and your choice of method for removing Nitrate. Maybe a Sulfur reactor, Vodka dosing, Biopellets etc. Once that is in place let the Algae in the tank grow in areas that are not an issue and just do a daily removal of anything near your corals. Keep watching the untouched strands as at some point they will loose that dark green color and start to yellow out and get transparent near the tips. That is a sign that you are truly reaching near zero nutrients, More flow, More light can actually speed up the process, helping the algae to grow and use up all the nutrients faster.
When the Hair Algae really start to loose its dark color its time to remove the remaining long strands that are left. Once this is done run some carbon in a reactor to remove all the yellowing and do a 25% water change then do another 1 week later. Make sure the water is Absolute Zero TDS or you will start to see the Agae come back. At this point your tank may have small tufts of algae around the place, just keep on hand picking them out until nothing is left.
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So, partially driven by this thread, I decided to finally sit down and fight my decent sized GHA problem. (good amount of accumulatd detritus, NO3 around 25, no idea what the PO4 is. However, the algae seems fairly static for the past few weeks; little growth and even in the ats it's not growing terribly well. Acros might not have been growing for a few weeks, hard to tell)
On Saturday (2 days ago) I took out every rock I had (30x11x18" tank) and brushed off a huge amount of GHA, and then stirred up a lot of detritus to be taken in by my marineland micron polishing filter, and then added flucanzole.
I think the brushing did most of the work, with the flucanzole doing the finishing touches; either way now much of it has disappeared. So far only one acro is doing poorly, though I don't think it's flucanzole related, it's been doing bad for a few weeks. We'll see how it does long term.
Pics to follow. 
eta video:
I don't have any pics from before, just imagine the white spots with about 1-2 inches of GHA.
I wanted to catch my yellow head jawfish acting crazy maybe 15 seconds before, but for whatever reason she stopped.
Anyway, this is the most active I've seen the royal gramma in several weeks. I added an (ORA I assume) lemon damsel a few weeks ago, and while it's definitely been peaceful (per ORA's advertising plus the species reputation), its presence near the RG's lair has definitely kept the RG in his hole much more often. (he used to be out more, even though he did like that hole, and would even bite me if my hand got too close. )
On Saturday (2 days ago) I took out every rock I had (30x11x18" tank) and brushed off a huge amount of GHA, and then stirred up a lot of detritus to be taken in by my marineland micron polishing filter, and then added flucanzole.
I think the brushing did most of the work, with the flucanzole doing the finishing touches; either way now much of it has disappeared. So far only one acro is doing poorly, though I don't think it's flucanzole related, it's been doing bad for a few weeks. We'll see how it does long term.
eta video:
I don't have any pics from before, just imagine the white spots with about 1-2 inches of GHA.
I wanted to catch my yellow head jawfish acting crazy maybe 15 seconds before, but for whatever reason she stopped.
Anyway, this is the most active I've seen the royal gramma in several weeks. I added an (ORA I assume) lemon damsel a few weeks ago, and while it's definitely been peaceful (per ORA's advertising plus the species reputation), its presence near the RG's lair has definitely kept the RG in his hole much more often. (he used to be out more, even though he did like that hole, and would even bite me if my hand got too close.
)
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spidercrab
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When this tank is zero nutrients it is truly zero. There are no fish and no nutrients going in. The corals are all dying of starvation. If I add a phosphate reactor to further deplete the nutrients then it will be no longer a coral tank. The problem is that the hair algae is far more resilient than the corals. Hair algae is just fine going months without any nutrients while the coral are all dying from starvation. I think the main issue is the dinos. Because I cant add any cleaners to this tank otherwise they would keep the hair algae in check.
How do you know its truly zero if the hair algae is consuming it? Yes I agree hair algae is far more resilient but the real reefs have almost zero phos and Nitrate. Yes they circulate a lot of water that only has tiny amounts but at the same time they have no hair algae.
Anyway I am pretty much out on this one. I have seen 17 years of these kinds of posts and the actions taken are almost always to add some kind of chemical to the water.
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