Gilroy 425g Build Thread (All Apex, all the time)

[Terence]

Am I correct in my thinking that there isn't a significant difference in initial build costs between a 200-250g display and a 400-500g display?
Obviously monthly costs would be different, as would stocking costs, but do you think your build would have been pretty close to the same budget with a smaller DT?

The good news (if you are considering something in the 200-300 range) is that the relationship of cost to aquarium size is not linear. With a 200-300 gallon aquarium you can use an off the shelf tank and stand if you wish - this cuts the cost down significantly. Also, you can more easily choose to have all of your equipment under the stand. Again, this lowers the cost significantly. Much of the other hardware will be in the same ballpark. The exception will be if your fish-room is on a different floor and requires a pressure rated pump.

Hey Terrence could you not just have said (like we all do) that you got a great deal on the equipment,or it was on sale and at least halve the amount.Thank goodness my wife does not read this stuff.I like to think that she has no idea....yeah right

I have the luxury of having a wife that loves the hobby as much if not more than I do. She is not much into the tinkering at all, but she truly appreciates all the fish and coral and really gets into it. She has been the person insisting on a bigger tank when I went from my 110g to my 210g and then again insisting on a huge tank for this house when we moved in. She also appreciates how much joy I get out of it. Because of this, I do not have to hide from her the costs. I am very fortunate. So sorry I did not put the filter on.

The other side to this is that I hate seeing people start something like this without out a crystal clear outlook on what is required. They then end up being 12 month hobbyists or they are someone who, for years, was a happy hobbyist at 90g and the upgrade pushed them out altogether as they realized/faced what the real costs would be.

 

[IvanW]

Actually my wife has every idea,after my tank disaster almost 2 years ago (650 gallons total) she was the first one to say it was okay to get a new tank.She quickly estimated the cost of the tank equipment livestock etc that was lost and came up with a rough estimate of about 30k.
Happy to say new tank is on order,so I am taking a keen interest in this build.

 

[Fishpalace]

It certainly is an expensive hobby.

I have a 100g and trying to work out if you go above a certain size does the scale of kit required to support it spike along with price and complexity. Is this the case or just looks that way as kit gets bigger?

 

[slief]

I have found my ald sensor extremely sensitive I have all mine sitting on dry paper towel they couldn't sit right on my cement floor. I'm very interested to see how they do on the pipe

Like you, I use a paper towel under my ALD sensors. I have for ALD sensors and those that are on concrete have paper towels under them. The ones that sit on my pond liner below my tank and on the vinyl floor in my tank support shed outside sit directly on the floor. Like Terrance suggested, concrete holds moisture which is one factor. If salt water was spilled on the concrete previously, it will retain the salt and become somewhat conductive which will also trip the ALD's. Prior to the ALD release, I used Water Bug leak detection sensors that were plugged into my Breakout box. Like the ALD, they too were pretty sensitive and the paper towel trick was the best way to prevent false alarms.

 

[Terence]

Happy to say new tank is on order,so I am taking a keen interest in this build.

Thanks for riding along and can't wait to see your build thread!

I have a 100g and trying to work out if you go above a certain size does the scale of kit required to support it spike along with price and complexity. Is this the case or just looks that way as kit gets bigger?

There is somewhat of a hockey stick on the graph. As I mentioned above, when you move from <300 to >300 the cost of the tank (especially glass) goes up significantly. Other pieces, not so much. For instance, a skimmer for a 200g tank and one for a 500g tank are not that different in price. Certainly not double. Generally though, when someone takes on a 400g+ project, a fish room is in the plan and that again can raise the cost. Especially if there are build out requirements for the room like mine. I had to excavate, put in a retaining wall, a concrete tile floor, run electrical, run water pipe, 300' of tank plumbing, etc. My "sump" (the room and reservoir) was likely 5-6x the cost of doing this with an under tank sump.

Complexity does not really go up much except in the plumbing department if your equipment is in another room.

One of the big advantages of the large systems is everything happens much more slowly. For instance, I have not even got to the ATO portion of my build yet (I am waiting for some automation company to release a new product) but it hasn't been that big of a deal since my water volume is so large and so is my sump. My salinity goes down 1ppt on my Apex and I go open a valve and let in a half an inch of RO water!

 

[Terence]

I use the API KH test. It costs $5. Each drop is 1 dkh. It takes 35 to 40 drops for the effluent to change color. I put 5ml of effluent in the vial and then drop the test KH fluid, 1 drop at a time until the effluent changes color. The bottle is large enough to do at least 50 or more tests. Very economical and accurate.

Great tip!

 

[slief]

Well the next piece of gear was installed yesterday and is being tuned in right now. I set up the Deltec Calcium Reactor. It really was pretty easy to set up - but then I have a lot of calcium reactor experience. I can see how this might be VERY daunting for someone new to this piece of tech.

The Deltec reactor uses a different method and media than nearly every other one on the market. It uses a proprietary mixed media (includes calcium and magnesium) and it is the consistency of large grains of sand. In a traditional reactor, recirculating water passes by the media and the low-pH water "melts" the media as it passes. This can lead to issues in some reactors as the water can start to channel in the media and this makes the amount of surface area contact greatly diminished. The Deltec reactor actually tumbles the media by using a reverse flow. Water enters the reactor through a filter so that no foreign matter goes into the pump. CO2 comes in through a check valve. The water pickup for the effluent is lower than the pump intake so overgassed/unused CO2 automatically recycles.

I used an AquaMaxx CO2 Solenoid/Regulator. It was a pretty good deal and I wanted to stay away from the Milwaukee as those have been a real PITA for me in the past.

The manifold I made two weeks ago worked perfect for the feed for now. I added an inline valve on the 1/4" to better regulate the flow and there is another valve on the reactor itself. I have it flowing about 20ml/min right now but that will need to go up. I tested the effluent and it was about 21dKh (I want it at around 30) so I turned down the pH set point a bit. 6.6 now.

Next phase for this will be to connect it to a DŌS and perfectly regulate the flow. Many have the wrong impression that you need a peristaltic pump to be running 24/7 continuous duty. This is not true. I can run it for one minute out of every three and it will be just fine. The volume coming out of the reactor is only about 150-200ml in a minute or twos time. The reactor holds gallons. And the pH differential is only 1.5 between tank and reactor. The pH rise will be minimal. Can't wait to prove this to everyone.

Today is test day too. Good thing I connected up the reactor - kH was down to 6.0. Cal is 400. Mg is 1340. NO3 is 3 and PO4 is .05. All going good. I added some Sodium Carbonate to bring up the kH to 8.5-9.0 and then fine tune the reactor to take it from here!

Very nice reactor!! Having fed calcium reactors via manifolds as well as Maxijet style pumps and using the old needle valves on the effluent lines, clogs were always a problem so I am a big proponent of a controllable flow pump. I will be very interested to hear how the DOS works out as a feed pump for that. I've always been a believer that intermittent flow will result in the effluent line clogging. Granted a pump like the DOS produces enough pressure that clogs shouldn't be an issue. In the absence of a needle valve on the effluent line, that would go along way to preventing effluent line clogs even with the intermittent flow. Especially since the DOS does produce a reasonable amount of pressure.

I use a Masterflex pump for my Geo 818 and it works great. I am one of those that swear by the Masterflex pumps. The push button control over flow works like a dream. My reactor pH is so stable that my Apex never has to shut the solenoid off. Especially when coupled with the Carbon Doser regulator. My Co2 rate and flow rate never waiver and my reactor pH is always exactly where I want it to be. If I want to raise or lower the pH in the reactor, all I need to do is adjust the flow with the push of a button which I can do in increments of 1/10 of a ml/min or make a slight adjustment to the Co2 rate. I keep my pH at about 6.7 and that's with a flow of 25 ml/min and a Co2 rate of 1 bubble ever 4 seconds. It's been 8 months since I've made more than a minor adjustment and that was only to adjust for my tanks needs. My 20 pound Co2 tank is still nearly full and my Apex hasn't once had to intervene with the reactor pH. I look forward to heading the results of the DOS feeding the reactor. You will be the first that I've heard of doing that so it will be great to hear the results.

 

[Terence]

There really is not much an issue with switching on and off the CO2. The valve and the relay on the EB8 can take it just fine. And, with a consistent flow, the slight change in the concentration of the effluent will be factored in anyways. We have done some calculations here at the office and given the volumes of effluent out, the overall volume of the reactor, and that the pH differential between the feed (tank) water and that of the reactor itself are minimal, it should be just fine. Will it be a continuous, constant flow into your tank - no - but that does not matter as it is going into 650 gallons anyways so 100-150ml every five minutes compared to continuous will be no different in the big picture.

I guess I had better get busy on that project! Then I will have yet another way to market the DŌS, especially since it looks like the price on it seems to be dropping...

 

[TD13]

Following.

 

[Panky]

Following

 

[MFlordhelmet]

Ha, I didn't know we had a big tank build in my local area. This looks like an exciting tank setup. Ill have to watch this with care and hopefully one day see this thing.

 

[SchnitzelReef]

There really is not much an issue with switching on and off the CO2. The valve and the relay on the EB8 can take it just fine. And, with a consistent flow, the slight change in the concentration of the effluent will be factored in anyways. We have done some calculations here at the office and given the volumes of effluent out, the overall volume of the reactor, and that the pH differential between the feed (tank) water and that of the reactor itself are minimal, it should be just fine. Will it be a continuous, constant flow into your tank - no - but that does not matter as it is going into 650 gallons anyways so 100-150ml every five minutes compared to continuous will be no different in the big picture.

I guess I had better get busy on that project! Then I will have yet another way to market the DŌS, especially since it looks like the price on it seems to be dropping...

What about the constant opening and closing of the solenoid on the co2 regulator? (They are only rated for X amount of cycles.) Seems like the way your planning on setting up your calcium reactor feed pump will cause big PH fluctuations inside your Ca reactor....unless I'm misunderstanding something.


This is all I allow my PH to fluctuate.

 

[JBNY]

I am interested in seeing how the DOS works with your reactor too. I have a Masterflex on my MTC Ca reactor and agree it was the most stable thing I had ever used and very easy to make rock solid adjustments.

I currently have two DOS units on my tank and they are very nice indeed, so I really want to see how they perform with the reactor. Question when you set up the DOS would it be just as easy as telling the unit how much ml you want to dose forthe day eg 20ml/min = 28,800ml per day, and just let the DOS turn it self on when needed?

 

[Terence]

What about the constant opening and closing of the solenoid on the co2 regulator? (They are only rated for X amount of cycles.) Seems like the way your planning on setting up your calcium reactor feed pump will cause big PH fluctuations inside your Ca reactor....unless I'm misunderstanding something.

Using my method, the solenoid will come on and off about 3x more than it does now. <120 times. At this rate, it would take years to wear it out.

So here is the math (I will try and prove this out when I have the DOS hooked up). There is about 7400ml of water in this reactor when the media is up to the max fill line. I plan on doing 30ml/min of effluent. Since the DOS has a 1/3 duty cycle, I will have it on every four minutes and dose 120ml. That is ~1.6% of the reactor volume. The water going in is pH of 8.2. The water in the reactor is pH 6.2. The effective raise in pH from introducing this new water is pH 0.03. Negligible. With a controller set to come on at 6.3 and off at 6.2 the CO2 should come on about every three doses - 12 minutes. That is at most 12o times a day. With an even larger reactor, the effect becomes smaller. However, there is a limit, both on the throughput of the DOS as well as the point at which it would effect a drop too large in the reactor. I just think that myself (and most people) would not reach that for some time.

Question when you set up the DOS would it be just as easy as telling the unit how much ml you want to dose forthe day eg 20ml/min = 28,800ml per day, and just let the DOS turn it self on when needed?

For this operation it will be a little more advanced programming as this was not one of the original intended purposes of the DOS and Calcium Reactors are not usually used by anything but advanced aquarists.

 

[SchnitzelReef]

Using my method, the solenoid will come on and off about 3x more than it does now. <120 times. At this rate, it would take years to wear it out.

So here is the math (I will try and prove this out when I have the DOS hooked up). There is about 7400ml of water in this reactor when the media is up to the max fill line. I plan on doing 30ml/min of effluent. Since the DOS has a 1/3 duty cycle, I will have it on every four minutes and dose 120ml. That is ~1.6% of the reactor volume. The water going in is pH of 8.2. The water in the reactor is pH 6.2. The effective raise in pH from introducing this new water is pH 0.03. Negligible. With a controller set to come on at 6.3 and off at 6.2 the CO2 should come on about every three doses - 12 minutes. That is at most 12o times a day. With an even larger reactor, the effect becomes smaller. However, there is a limit, both on the throughput of the DOS as well as the point at which it would effect a drop too large in the reactor. I just think that myself (and most people) would not reach that for some time.


For this operation it will be a little more advanced programming as this was not one of the original intended purposes of the DOS and Calcium Reactors are not usually used by anything but advanced aquarists.

Never been a fan of controlling PH with the solenoid. Throws another factor in to worry about when I'm on vacation or out of town. Fine tuning the reactor with a stable Ph just means less headache for me.

A friend of mine wiped out his whole tank by having a fluctuating Ph. Went out of town, Solenoid got stuck open on one of the many on/off cycles he had it setup for. PH went up and up, every single one of his acros RTNd. I'm sure you will have a safer setup, where the apex will shut off the DOS if that were to ever happen. But why risk it, and why worry about it....

Spend a little time, figure out how much effluent you need, and set it and forget it.
Idk, just a thought.

 

[Terence]

Except something still needs to regulate the CO2 entering the reactor. If not a solenoid, then an accurate regulator with bubble counter. Something has to be constant and something has to be variable. And, all parts can fail. There is never a Ron Popeil solution.

I assume in your example you mean that the tank pH kept dropping, not going up. Remember, tank pH is monitored too. So if tank pH drops too far, both the DOS and the CO2 solenoid go off. In the scenario that the solenoid gets stuck open, the only thing that will happen is the reactor will overgas and likely one of the fittings will fail under pressure - or the thing pops a seal. In any event, no harm could come to the aquarium unless both the DOS sticks on, and the CO2 sticks on. And, don't forget, I would be getting low pH alarms and readouts all along the way so someone could go take care of it for me. If I really was crazy worried, I would put a NC Solenoid valve on the effluent line into the tank.

 

[SchnitzelReef]

I do use a solenoid on my co2 regulator, along with a low flow needle valve to control the co2 output. That needle valve made running a Ca reactor so much easier. Fine tuning the reactor is very simple now.

The solenoid always stays in the open position, it never has to close. I understand that there is always something that can go wrong, I was just trying to explain what I believe to be a safer setup. I understand your way will work, and I'm not trying to butt heads with or anything like that. Just trying to explain the way I setup my reactor.

Also I wouldn't think the reactor would "pop a seal" if your solenoid is stuck open. Seeing how big your system is, you will likely have a very high effluent rate. Assuming your intentions are to have lots of corals. (Even if it's not an SPS dominant tank) High effluent rate + stuck open solenoid = huge fluctuation in Alk on top of the big Ph drop in your tank.
That was just my $.02.

 

[Terence]

The part you are missing is that the DOS is a peristaltic pump. Therefore, if the CO2 stays on, and the DOS is not running, there is no where for it to go as the line is still pinched in the rollers. It will effectively pressurize the reactor and the weakest point in the system will let go. You have traded off the uncertainty of an off/on solenoid valve for the uncertainty of the flow mechanism (pump) without removing the uncertainty of runaway CO2 anyway (the regulator or needle valve can fail - or a child could crank open the needle valve)

On either my solution or yours, the ultimate safety stop is a NC Solenoid valve on the effluent output line that is controlled by the Apex. This way, a proper pH level in the tank is required to keep the effluent flowing. For the relatively low cost, I think I will do this at some point.

This is a good discussion and I think there are many ways to get something done. I have been running controlled calcium reactors for long before anyone used the MasterFlex. My reason to try this is that so many in that camp think that unless it (a peristaltic pump) is not flowing all the time, it cannot work as a solution. In fact, if I so desired, I could do exactly as you did and use a needle valve (or aquarium plants device) to find the exact rate of CO2 that would make the solenoid switching almost never happen at all. But why?

Again, I love this stuff and love that this thread will help others better understand things like this that are very complicated for the average hobbyist.

 

[JBNY]

I agree Terence, you should have no problems with a co2 regulator when using the Apex to monitor and control the reactor. I was running a ca reactor with Masterflex and it works flawlessly, but before that, for 14 years, I ran with out a peristaltic pump (just the flow controller on an MTC reactor) and had fantastic results as well.

I've been using Ca Reactors for years, the problem with CO2 dumping into the reactor and lowing your tank pH will not happen if you are using the Apex to control the pH in the reactor. The reason that happens is when the CO2 tank is almost empty the pressure drops in the CO2 tank and a large amount of CO2 can go out through the regulator, that is why it is importnat to have a contoller (the Apex). Your Apex montiors the Reactor pH and shuts off the soleniod if the pH dips too low inside the reactor (which stops the CO2 dump). And you are right, even if the solenoid fails on the reactor (very rare) and it sticks open (even more rare), the Apex DOS unit needs to be delivering effluent to the tank for that low pH to get into the DT. Lastly you really don't need to worry about popping a seal in the reactor if the solenoid fails open, just make sure you have the pressure gage on the regulator to only a few psi over the operating psi of the CA reactor, that way if the solenoid were to fail, the pressure build up would eventually exceed what the regulator can put out and no more co2 will get in the reactor till the pressure drops.

You can make a CA Reactor pretty much full proof, almost all the ways it can fail are known ahead of time and with just some planning (which you are doing) you can avoid the pitfalls.

 

[Terence]

Great point on the regulator limiting the pressure. I didn't even think of that.