GLA Supplements for raising Nitrate and Phosphate

[Belgian Anthias]

If, in the future, you expect readers to look into scientific references, please post the actual literature reference in a normal scientific form, not a link to a password protected private database.

Something like this:

Sabrina Rosset, Jörg Wiedenmann, Adam J. Reed, Cecilia D'Angelo,
Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates, Marine Pollution Bulletin, Volume 118, Issues 1–2, 2017, Pages 180-187

I would also suggest that such papers need careful reading and that extrapolating to a reef tank requires one to read deeply.

For example, this paper has this statement, which if read with a lack of deep understanding, would seem to support your theory:

"Recently, we demonstrated that corals exposed to HN/LP conditions were more susceptible to bleaching when exposed to heat stress and/or elevated light levels (Wiedenmann et al., 2013). "

(this is a link to a free pdf of the full bleaching article referenced there:
http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.org.in/files/file/Nutrient enrichment.pdf )

They go on to show several potentially undesirable effects on zoox of this level of nutrients.

BUT, when you look carefully into what they mean by low phosphate high nitrate conditions, they actually mean:

"high nitrogen/low phosphorus (HN/LP = ~ 38 μM NO3−/~0.18 μM PO4−; N: P ratio = 211:1) "

38 uM nitrate = 2.4 ppm
0.18 uM phosphate = 0.017 ppm phosphate

and what are they comparing to that represents a better case, in their experiments?

"In our experiments, a phosphate concentration of ~ 0.3 μM at a N: P ratio of 22:1 yielded an overall healthy phenotype. Accordingly, it is likely that the absolute N: P ratio becomes also less critical for the proper functioning of the symbionts when phosphate concentrations exceed a vital supply threshold (> 0.3 μM), even when the symbionts are rapidly proliferating. "

What are these levels?
0.3 uM phosphate = 0.029 ppm phosphate
38 uM nitrate = 2.4 ppm nitrate

Interesting. THAT IS well within the range I have recommended (0.03 ppm phosphate, a few ppm nitrate). QED.

We are getting somewhere.

In a range, yes, but that range will not minimize the risk for phosphorus to become the limiting factor. There are a lot of publications about corals and symbiodinium and the use of nutrients and they have different results concerning the ranges but it all comes to the same, phosphorus is best not the limiting factor.
As one has no idea of how much nitrogen and phosphorus is cycled in the aquarium, to minimize the risk for nitrogen to support increasing growth and the supply of phosphorus or other essentials can not follow ( during periods of increased growth due to temp or DOC in the holobiont) , balancing the nutrient reserve in a way this reserve may be responsible for phosphorus starvation is minimized seems to me good husbandry. And it is not only for the corrals but for all nutrient cycles taking place.
And it is easy! Keep it below 10/1. 0.2 ppm phosphate and <2ppm nitrate? 0.1ppm and <1ppm?
0.2ppm phosphate is enough to support nitrification and denitrification processes also when filters or reactors are used and temp increases 2°C . It is not enough for removing 20 ppm nitrate using a denitrator and 0 nitrate in the effluent. With 0.03 ppm phosphate reserve such a device will not be able to function properly as phosphate present in the reactor will be depleted fast, depending on the nitrate level.

Good nutrient husbandry is preventing phosphorus may become the limiting factor for growth.

Does phosphate support algae growth? of course, but only when nitrogen is suffiently available. By preference nitrate is used as the limiting factor, in most cases, this prevents depletion of other essential nutrients on a moment they are very needed.

Managing the nutrient reserve is not that difficult, starting with the protein content of the added food.

It is a good idea for everybody to use propper references and explain why if advice is given. But as you well know one can not publish protected information on a public forum without having permission. I do refer to my source, as directed for using information made available by Makazi Baharini. If from content of Makazi Baharini is used one must provide a link to where the info is made available. The provided info is for personal use only, this with respect to the publishers and authors of the used references. Also, papers made available for the public by the author are not automatically free to use and often for personal use only, the rights of the publishers still stand.

Happy reefing.

 

[lakai]

Does anyone know the mixing ratio for these poweders ??

 

[jimc40]

FWIW I’ve been using these Greenleaf aquariums supplements for months and they’ve worked well for me. Only took a few nitrate doses to get my nitrate to a level that was maintainable (12 ppm is where I keep mine). For phosphate I need to dose around .04 ppm per day to maintain the levels I’m looking for, which is between .07 and .1 ppm

What amounts of each are you using per 500 ml. I have recently bought GHL product and trying to figure out a proper mix would like it to be close as potent as the brightwell products as I am dosing that now

 

[trmiv]

What amounts of each are you using per 500 ml. I have recently bought GHL product and trying to figure out a proper mix would like it to be close as potent as the brightwell products as I am dosing that now

I use 50g of the nitrate per 500 ml and 5g of the phosphate per 500 ml

 

[jimc40]

I use 50g of the nitrate per 500 ml and 5g of the phosphate per 500 ml

Thanks will try that mix and make adjustments by dosing. I am currently dosing 75 mil neophos and 100ml neonitro

 

[lakai]

So I ended up mixing 36-37 gms of nitrate per 500ml rodi and mixed about the same for the phosphate. Ended up spiking my phosphates from 0.03 to off the charts (unreadable by hanna checker 2.50+ppm) in a few doses. It's taken a few weeks with aggressive GFO and have it down to 1.24 at the moment. So don't do that.

 

[Carz]

How much of that did you dose?

 

[lakai]

How much of that did you dose?

15-30ml a few times oh the po3. One positive thing is I no longer have dinos and lost no coral. But now I have some heavy green cyano that I’m hoping will go away once my po3 gets back down.

The nitrate mixing ratio is correct as that is the max that is soluble in water. Dosed 30 ml day.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

15-30ml a few times oh the po3. One positive thing is I no longer have dinos and lost no coral. But now I have some heavy green cyano that I’m hoping will go away once my po3 gets back down.

The nitrate mixing ratio is correct as that is the max that is soluble in water. Dosed 30 ml day.

Really? The max solubility of the nitrate product is 37 g/500 mL?

That seems very odd as the solubility of both sodium and potassium nitrate are far higher than that. Wonder what the heck it is? I would not use it if that's the case.

 

[lakai]

Really? The max solubility of the nitrate product is 37 g/500 mL?

That seems very odd as the solubility of both sodium and potassium nitrate are far higher than that. Wonder what the heck it is? I would not use it if that's the case.

Well . I don’t know for sure but it is what I read. Also on some other forum people were seeing it recrystalize if they added too much. Regardless if it is true or not, I found 37-40gms per 500ml to be a ratio that works for me.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well . I don’t know for sure but it is what I read. Also on some other forum people were seeing it recrystalize if they added too much. Regardless if it is true or not, I found 37-40gms per 500ml to be a ratio that works for me.

I'd recommend food grade sodium or potassium nitrate. Guaranteed purity, relatively inexpensive, and can be much more concentrated, if one wants.

 

[lakai]

I'd recommend food grade sodium or potassium nitrate. Guaranteed purity, relatively inexpensive, and can be much more concentrated, if one wants.

Could you recommend one? And mixing ratio?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Could you recommend one? And mixing ratio?

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This calculator walks you through making and using it. Use the entry for potassium nitrate, and then use 15% less (less solids or less liquid dosed) because sodium weighs less than potassium. That correction is hardly important, however. It is fine to ignore it entirely.

James' Planted Tank - Dosing Calculator

 

[lakai]

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This calculator walks you through making and using it. Use the entry for potassium nitrate, and then use 15% less (less solids or less liquid dosed) because sodium weighs less than potassium. That correction is hardly important, however. It is fine to ignore it entirely.

James' Planted Tank - Dosing Calculator

Appreciate you, Thank you.

 

[MakerofThings]

I use 50g of the nitrate per 500 ml and 5g of the phosphate per 500 ml

Out of curiosity, how much of that do you then dose to your tank?

 

[trmiv]

10ml of that solution of the nitrate will raise the nitrate in my tank roughly 2ppm.

1ml of the phosphate will raise the phosphate in my tank roughly .02 ppm

I used this calculator with it set to 85 gallons

James' Planted Tank - Dosing Calculator

 

[blackstallion]

Would disodium phosphate work? And if so, which calculator would be used? Same question for trisodium phosphate, which calculator?

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/calculator.htm

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Would disodium phosphate work? And if so, which calculator would be used? Same question for trisodium phosphate, which calculator?

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/calculator.htm

Any food grade sodium phosphate is a fine plan. Mono sodium, disodium or trisodium.

Since the exact value is of little practical important since most of it will bind to rock and sand, using the James planted tank calculator as a rough guide is a fine plan to determine a dose. You will be adjusting it anyway.. Just use the entry for potassium phosphate for any sodium phosphate.

 

[blackstallion]

Any food grade sodium phosphate is a fine plan. Mono sodium, disodium or trisodium.

Since the exact value is of little practical important since most of it will bind to rock and sand, using the James planted tank calculator as a rough guide is a fine plan to determine a dose. You will be adjusting it anyway.. Just use the entry for potassium phosphate for any sodium phosphate.

Made a quick spreadsheet to see if it's worth making my own Nitrate and Phosphate supplements vs using Brightwells NeoNitro and NeoPhos. Would appreciate if someone could verify my logic.

For the NeoNitro and NeoPhos dosage, I just used the instructions from the bottle to calculate dose for my 200G tank. Using Sodium Nitrate and Trisodium Phosphate, I calculated dose with the calculator on the James planted tank website. Assumption was I was mixing up the entire contents of the supplement ie. 50g for Nitrate and 113g for Phosphate.

For the Nitrate, if I do it myself, it basically looks like I would be able to save about 3 times the cost. But for the Phosphate, it's coming out to a 75x saving. Does that seem accurate?

Another concern I have is will dosing Nitrates and Phosphates (regardless of whether it's with the Brightwell products or DIY) cause my tank chemistry to wander in the near or long term?

	NeoNitro (500mL)	Sodium Nitrate (50g)	NeoPhos	Trisodium Phosphate (113g)
ml for +0.01ppm in 200G	NA	NA	7.57	1
ml for +1ppm in 200G	25.22	10	NA	NA
Total volume (ml) of supplement	500	400	500	7000
# of doses for 0.01ppm	NA	NA	66.05	7000
# of doses for 1ppm	19.83	40	NA	NA
cost of supplement	$10	$7	$10	$14
cost/dose	$0.50	$0.18	$0.15	$0.002

 

[Viva'sReef]

Made a quick spreadsheet to see if it's worth making my own Nitrate and Phosphate supplements vs using Brightwells NeoNitro and NeoPhos. Would appreciate if someone could verify my logic.

For the NeoNitro and NeoPhos dosage, I just used the instructions from the bottle to calculate dose for my 200G tank. Using Sodium Nitrate and Trisodium Phosphate, I calculated dose with the calculator on the James planted tank website. Assumption was I was mixing up the entire contents of the supplement ie. 50g for Nitrate and 113g for Phosphate.

For the Nitrate, if I do it myself, it basically looks like I would be able to save about 3 times the cost. But for the Phosphate, it's coming out to a 75x saving. Does that seem accurate?

Another concern I have is will dosing Nitrates and Phosphates (regardless of whether it's with the Brightwell products or DIY) cause my tank chemistry to wander in the near or long term?

	NeoNitro (500mL)	Sodium Nitrate (50g)	NeoPhos	Trisodium Phosphate (113g)
ml for +0.01ppm in 200G	NA	NA	7.57	1
ml for +1ppm in 200G	25.22	10	NA	NA
Total volume (ml) of supplement	500	400	500	7000
# of doses for 0.01ppm	NA	NA	66.05	7000
# of doses for 1ppm	19.83	40	NA	NA
cost of supplement	$10	$7	$10	$14
cost/dose	$0.50	$0.18	$0.15	$0.002

Your math checks out on cost but I verified the dose same as you, using James' Planted tank calculator.

I wasn't going for a ULNS but here we are. Full roller mat, oversized skimmer, AND chaeto reactor is shaping up to be a mistake. The Chaeto has slowly died off to about 1/3 of the softball size it once was (Chaeto gro hasn't helped but only been adding it for about a week so who knows)

Recent SPS RTN events has me chasing everything and this is where I ended up. Other than also heating my WC to match tank temp because I was just using basement mixed cold water which caused a big dip of 12-15 degrees when changing out 10g.

I've gone crazy with feeding trying to get my Po4 up and it doesn't seem to budge. A recent ICP test had me at Zero, my Hanna consistently reads 0.01-0.02 and with an Accuracy: ±.02 ppm - it's likely still Zero. I'd like to get it into a detectable range that accounts for the margin of accuracy so in a range of 0.05-0.07 maybe? Nitrate seems to just hold steady at 5ppm (Nyos) so I don't think I need a correction or to dose that....yet.

So I ordered some Trisodium Phosphate and will mix up 500ml of the stuff at a concentration of 1ml per 0.02ppm Po4 using 80g as my volume. Next I guess we chase and try to figure out the rate of depletion so I can figure out a daily dosing regimen. Fingers crossed.