Good advice. Untaken.
- Thread starter Scott Fellman
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jgvergo
Valuable Member
Great post and thread. As a new reefer, I'm trying to do everything "right". It's incredible how many options there are for the 1000's of decisions that are made along the way of building a reef, especially for those of us with a penchant for DIY solutions. For me, it almost always involves a little internal debate about quality (health of the inhabitants, reliability, maintainability, aesthetics, etc.) vs. speed and cost. It is soooo tempting to make decisions that get you to where you want to be faster and cheaper. I've received lots of advice from people on this forum. When I compare it to what I hear from LFSs, it's pretty clear that our forum members lean heavily towards quality.
As a new member to this site, I have throughly enjoyed this article. I have kept a reef aquarium since 2013 and still consider myself at the beginner level even though I have been told otherwise. I appreciate the vote of confidence but there's always something to challenge the reef aquarist, I certainly am no exception. I have encountered the cyano blooms and all the "beginner problems". Enough can not be said for time and patience- more critically, patience. It is a learning curve. Sure it is tempting to find a quick fix for cyano blooms and the host of other problems for which there is a "quick fix" in a bottle. But unfortunately the problems don't go away, or there is a loss fish, or corals, and don't forget the $$ invested in those purchases. I have and continue to rely on the advice of my lfs who is quite some distance away and not the big box pet stores which are local. I have spent nights bent over a bucket of salt water scrubbing live rock by hand and "doing it the right way". That alone requires patience...and the learning? keep the water changes, check and recheck the water parameters and things amazingly settle down. To all the "newbies" visiting this site, READ the above article. The man is correct.
reefwiser
LMAS
Most people will take the easy way out of a problem. Then when it doesn't work they bail out. Then they give the hobby a bad rap for being Hard or difficult.
But this is common in life too. There are not easy answers to anything in life and you see people always searching for that easy fix.
But this is common in life too. There are not easy answers to anything in life and you see people always searching for that easy fix.
TheEngineer
Formerly icecool2
Another great post, Scott. I've been in feeding for 20 years at this point and I still consider myself an intermediate reefer. Sommetimes I wish it cost more to be in the hobby. For some reason, there are people who don't put a lot of value on the life of aquatic animals. They see a fish as just some fun thing to watch and not a being who is completely dependent on them to survive.
There was a post on here not that long ago about how to prepare for power outages. I could not believe that someone posted that they don't care about their tank if the power is out and they just make sure their family is comfortable. Obviously your family comes first but to make no efforts or take any preparations for the inevitable makes you irresponsible and you shouldn't be in the hobby. That person's response was they would just replace whatever dies. What!!??
I'm friendly with the owner of one LFS near me and was over there picking some stuff up on a day he was closed so it was just he and I talking for a while. I asked what he does when someone clearly shouldn't get something. He said he does everything he can to convince them not to buy something but can only do so much. I know plenty of stores that don't care or maybe are too burnt out to care.
These sorts of people are the ones that get highlighted when someone wants to take aim at our hobby.
There was a post on here not that long ago about how to prepare for power outages. I could not believe that someone posted that they don't care about their tank if the power is out and they just make sure their family is comfortable. Obviously your family comes first but to make no efforts or take any preparations for the inevitable makes you irresponsible and you shouldn't be in the hobby. That person's response was they would just replace whatever dies. What!!??
I'm friendly with the owner of one LFS near me and was over there picking some stuff up on a day he was closed so it was just he and I talking for a while. I asked what he does when someone clearly shouldn't get something. He said he does everything he can to convince them not to buy something but can only do so much. I know plenty of stores that don't care or maybe are too burnt out to care.
These sorts of people are the ones that get highlighted when someone wants to take aim at our hobby.
Reef_Hobbyist
Active Member
And what if her story was about wiping out a litter of puppies she was responsible for versus a tank full of fish?
This is a great post Scott. I see this a lot and hear of those even more. This arrogance of "see....I told you so" makes it tougher for a person truly trying to get into the hobby.
In my opinion, it creates a Callus type effect on the knowledgable ones, who become less motivated to help the ones who ask for help and try to implement your advice. I've learned (mostly after one of my tirades from your past posts), it's an amazingly tough balance from all sides. I'm learning, like making friends when I was a little kid, you've got to trust and build a trust with the ones you understand and that understand you. The rest are just going to do what they want.
Well, if it makes you feel better, it seems there are a lot of us out here listening to you and all the rest of you friendly folks that trying to help us beginners out and I honestly do appreciate all advice given....even if I don't want to hear it at times too!
In my opinion, it creates a Callus type effect on the knowledgable ones, who become less motivated to help the ones who ask for help and try to implement your advice. I've learned (mostly after one of my tirades from your past posts), it's an amazingly tough balance from all sides. I'm learning, like making friends when I was a little kid, you've got to trust and build a trust with the ones you understand and that understand you. The rest are just going to do what they want.
Well, if it makes you feel better, it seems there are a lot of us out here listening to you and all the rest of you friendly folks that trying to help us beginners out and I honestly do appreciate all advice given....even if I don't want to hear it at times too!
OP
OP
I know that I take a long term view in everything, and I think I'd take the high road and do what you're thinking- I'd tell the customer that it's in her best interest to try something else. Yes that can be perceived as somewhat arrogant, but it is the right thing to do. In three years co-owning Unique Corals, I only had one customer that I had to take a stand on and refuse to sell any more corals to. Every single order, at least three quarters of the animals dies within a day. We examined every angle of what we could have done wrong, replaced tons of livestock for free, yet, when we asked for more than the most cursory information about his setup and acclimation techniques, etc.- he refused and decided it was everyone else's fault. He would take no personal responsibility for anything- ever. Finally, on day he placed an order and I promptly refunded his money. He was very unhappy with me and UC, but it was the right call.
OP
OP
Yeah, I wonder what her attitude would be like. Perhaps she'd be just as callous, who knows? But awful to contemplate.
OP
OP
Well I'm no expert, but I do feel that some of my experience can possibly help others. And if I can help others be successful, it's good for everyone- the hobby, the hobbyist- the animals- and yeah, even the vendor long term, who benefits from a great customer relationship borne of mutual experience and trust.
OP
OP
The tragic thing about arrogance and "I told you so's" in the reef hobby is that they typically result in death for the animals. Unless real enlightenment and change in attitude arise as a result- it's just a senseless tragedy.
OP
OP
Literally, I'm sighing out loud here in the airport lounge as I read this. (Drew a couple of glances, I might add!)- there is only so much you CAN do for people that refuse good advice. The reality is that you sometimes just have to cut the person loose- for their own good.
OP
OP
Thanks for the kind and kind words. Like most of you, I won't stop helping people if they need it. However, in certain cases, as we mentioned- the greater good is often served by NOT helping someone who refuses to heed your advice.
I was actually on the receiving end of bad advices but luckily it worked out ok. Had a Cyano outbreak for weeks, I'd manually removed the slime thru siphoning or even scrub them off and suck them up with tubing; increase flow did not help, filter water twice a week didn't help; 2 days with no light didn't seem to solve anything except for some corals show signs of stress so I had to turned them back on. Ppl on forum kept telling me to do vinegar, hydrogen peroxide, etc. You won't believe instead of sharing valuable knowledges, most common response I got was "oh it's normal, typical problem you have for new tank". How about tell me why it happens so I know how to prevent it and how to treat it. When my diamomd goby died cuz he choked on the red slime that accumulated where i cannot see or have access to, i went to LFS and of course after hearing everything I have tried to the best of my knowledge, they suggest the costly Chemiclean. I was very reluctant cuz i dont like adding anything to the main tank nor does that actually tell me why it happened. However, i got really tired of trying to figure out what's going on and advices from the forums were either useless so I gave Chemiclean a try. In the end, it works but I wouldn't advise this to new hobbyists unless they ask. Nowaday, when i ask for advice about corals care and whatnot i would still conflicting advises.
Tahoe61
10K Club member
Appreciate the thread.
Thanks for articulating some frustration felt by long time hobbyist and those soooo passionate about the hobby.
Thanks for articulating some frustration felt by long time hobbyist and those soooo passionate about the hobby.
I have a friend just like this. I was going to try an experiment and give him the opposite advice I would normally so he would do the right thing, but chickened out. Knowing my luck, he would actually listen to me for the 1st time. Oh Well, Whaaaaaa o_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_O:rolleyes::rolleyes:;)
don_chuwish
Smells something fishy
"Conflicting advice" is part of the problem - read any thread asking for advice and you'll see many different responses. Some in conflict, some that actually compliment each other yet still bicker, some that are the exact same thing just done a different way. Especially if you expand your reading to other reef forums as well. TRT spent pages and pages just trying to decide what the definition of a 'refugium' actually was - then still couldn't keep participants on track with it.
I know I myself have sometimes taken advice with a bit more than a grain of salt. Sometimes I just felt that the respondent didn't quite understand the situation/objective correctly. Sometimes even if I agreed with them there was perhaps some reason I couldn't follow the advice (equipment, budget, time, whatever). When I set up my first tank it was with a canister filter - LFS never tried to steer me away from it. Once I had it all set up I couldn't very well change direction. All the advice about it being a nitrate factory I just had to dismiss and resolve to clean it often. Good advice, un-able to be taken.
I know I myself have sometimes taken advice with a bit more than a grain of salt. Sometimes I just felt that the respondent didn't quite understand the situation/objective correctly. Sometimes even if I agreed with them there was perhaps some reason I couldn't follow the advice (equipment, budget, time, whatever). When I set up my first tank it was with a canister filter - LFS never tried to steer me away from it. Once I had it all set up I couldn't very well change direction. All the advice about it being a nitrate factory I just had to dismiss and resolve to clean it often. Good advice, un-able to be taken.
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