Gramma in QT Help

[MPCReefer]

I have a Royal Gramma that has been in quarantine for 18 days that is very lethargic since last night. Fish has been thriving and eating frozen mysis twice daily since I brought it home. I noticed last night after feeding that it flashed a few times against the live rock in my QT tank (not medicating, planned to do observational QT only). I do not see any obvious visible spots on it, but he is still very small so it is difficult to get a good look.

Tank parameters have been consistent:
Salinity 1.025
Temp 77
Ammonia 0

I did an approx. 30% water change/cleaning two days ago and did another water change last night after noticing him at the bottom of the tank not in his normal hole in the rock. This morning, he is near the rock but not in his normal spot and continues to hover at the bottom.

I planned to keep him in QT at least through the end of the week, but with this turn he will remain in there until/if he gets back to normal. I am new to this and he will be my first fish in the DT if he makes it. I did have a fire fish that did not make it 48 hours in the QT. Any suggestions for courses of action at this point?

 

[MPCReefer]

A bit more information re: the QT tank. It is a 20g L that has a Tidal 35 filter. It has been established since October and was originally used to cure some live rock while I was waiting for my DT to be delivered and set up. Rock was moved out in early December. I did add a small clean up crew consisting of two Mexican turbos and two red leg hermits within the last week thinking they would help keep any uneaten food and film algae to a minimum. Those were added within the last week. Maybe that was a mistake. I have also been performing regular 30% water changes usually every 2-4 days and testing ammonia daily with no spikes noted.

 

[MPCReefer]

Was able to get a breathing rate just now of 100. Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Was able to get a breathing rate just now of 100. Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated!

Sounds like the gramma may have gill flukes...the timing is right, as well as the symptoms. Observational quarantine really needs to be called observational isolation because it doesn’t do anything about the host of pathogens that fish acquire moving through the supply chain. I would suggest treating it with prazipro or General cure, but bear in mind the fish would still be unprotected from most protozoan infections.
Jay

 

[MPCReefer]

Sounds like the gramma may have gill flukes...the timing is right, as well as the symptoms. Observational quarantine really needs to be called observational isolation because it doesn’t do anything about the host of pathogens that fish acquire moving through the supply chain. I would suggest treating it with prazipro or General cure, but bear in mind the fish would still be unprotected from most protozoan infections.
Jay

Thank you! True, it is not a strict quarantine as I left a couple of small pieces of live rock and did not want to dose with them in it. I may reconsider that.

So, forgive me, I have probably seen this already but can I dose the Prazipro or GC with the live rock and CUC in the tank or should I set up my smaller 10g to do that?

 

[MPCReefer]

Thank you! True, it is not a strict quarantine as I left a couple of small pieces of live rock and did not want to dose with them in it. I may reconsider that.

So, forgive me, I have probably seen this already but can I dose the Prazipro or GC with the live rock and CUC in the tank or should I set up my smaller 10g to do that?

Also, would a fresh water dip at this point unduly stress an already stressed fish? Thanks again!

 

[MPCReefer]

So I have been unable to find General Cure locally and tomorrow is the soonest I can travel to get some, which I plan to do. In the meantime, I picked up some Malachite Green and Herbtana. I dosed the Herbtana as recommended, but not the Malachite. The good news is the Gramma is still alive but definitely holding inside the rock and not eating at this point or really even coming out for that matter.

 

[MPCReefer]

Update: best I can tell breathing rate is 72 today. Hopefully that means there has been some relief. Still hiding out in his rock, but at least not laying on the bottom of the tank at this point.

 

[cmkeen0113]

Sounds like the gramma may have gill flukes...the timing is right, as well as the symptoms. Observational quarantine really needs to be called observational isolation because it doesn’t do anything about the host of pathogens that fish acquire moving through the supply chain. I would suggest treating it with prazipro or General cure, but bear in mind the fish would still be unprotected from most protozoan infections.
Jay

This just happened to my gramma yesterday. I did a freshwater dip per Humblefish guidelines and he definitely had flukes. He is doing great now and I am putting the QT he is in to hyposaline conditions to rid it of flukes.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

This just happened to my gramma yesterday. I did a freshwater dip per Humblefish guidelines and he definitely had flukes. He is doing great now and I am putting the QT he is in to hyposaline conditions to rid it of flukes.

What level of hypo are you shooting for? Remember that while fish can be dropped in salinity quite quickly, raising them back up needs to be done over many days - 5 at a minimum, 7 if you are going back up to full or high reef salinity. I keep fish in hypo for 35 days in order to resolve Neobenedenia flukes.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you! True, it is not a strict quarantine as I left a couple of small pieces of live rock and did not want to dose with them in it. I may reconsider that.

So, forgive me, I have probably seen this already but can I dose the Prazipro or GC with the live rock and CUC in the tank or should I set up my smaller 10g to do that?

You can safely dose with Prazipro in this case, but probably not with GC. Be sure to increase the aeration with Prazipro.

Jay

 

[cmkeen0113]

What level of hypo are you shooting for? Remember that while fish can be dropped in salinity quite quickly, raising them back up needs to be done over many days - 5 at a minimum, 7 if you are going back up to full or high reef salinity. I keep fish in hypo for 35 days in order to resolve Neobenedenia flukes.

Jay

Thanks Jay. I'm shooting for lowering the QT salinity to 1.011 SG over a 48 hour period per Humblefish guidelines. Today it is at 1.017 and the Royal Gramma is doing great. Humblefish's guidelines say that in one week at 1.011 will kill all the flukes, larvae and eggs. Is that incorrect and should I shoot for the 35 days you mentioned? Can a fish like a gramma do alright for 35 days at that low of salinity? BTW, I am also maintaining the Copper Power level at 2.0 ppm.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks Jay. I'm shooting for lowering the QT salinity to 1.011 SG over a 48 hour period per Humblefish guidelines. Today it is at 1.017 and the Royal Gramma is doing great. Humblefish's guidelines say that in one week at 1.011 will kill all the flukes, larvae and eggs. Is that incorrect and should I shoot for the 35 days you mentioned? Can a fish like a gramma do alright for 35 days at that low of salinity? BTW, I am also maintaining the Copper Power level at 2.0 ppm.

Yes - that isn't correct for Neobenedenia, but that would work for other flukes. Neo needs 30 days to kill their eggs (it basically keeps them from hatching long enough that they run out of energy and die). If just one egg hatches out and can find a host, the whole thing starts up again. That's why I go for 35 days. That said, I didn't confirm you fish had Neo, it is the larger fluke, looks like a sesame seed or fish scale in the dip. Other flukes are smaller and require a microscope to see them. The gramma can handle the hypo for that long, but I do not dose copper and hypo at the same time, so I cannot tell you if there is an issue with that. I know that copper is more toxic in freshwater, and that both hypo and coper are stressful, so they combine stress. I've heard some rumblings that copper at 1.009 is bad.

Jay

 

[cmkeen0113]

Yes - that isn't correct for Neobenedenia, but that would work for other flukes. Neo needs 30 days to kill their eggs (it basically keeps them from hatching long enough that they run out of energy and die). If just one egg hatches out and can find a host, the whole thing starts up again. That's why I go for 35 days. That said, I didn't confirm you fish had Neo, it is the larger fluke, looks like a sesame seed or fish scale in the dip. Other flukes are smaller and require a microscope to see them. The gramma can handle the hypo for that long, but I do not dose copper and hypo at the same time, so I cannot tell you if there is an issue with that. I know that copper is more toxic in freshwater, and that both hypo and coper are stressful, so they combine stress. I've heard some rumblings that copper at 1.009 is bad.

Jay

Thanks. The flukes were definitely larger in size, so I will assume they were Neobenedenia and shoot for hypo for 35 days. My next question regards level of hypo. I calibrated my hydrometer using purchased calibration fluid. After my second freshwater change this morning, my QT is at a salinity of 1.012 or 16 SG. Do I have to go exactly to 1.011 to kill the flukes. And so far the Gramma appears to be doing OK in hypo with 1.95 ppm Copper Power. Next time I do hypo I will not add Copper Power.

 

[cmkeen0113]

Thanks. The flukes were definitely larger in size, so I will assume they were Neobenedenia and shoot for hypo for 35 days. My next question regards level of hypo. I calibrated my hydrometer using purchased calibration fluid. After my second freshwater change this morning, my QT is at a salinity of 1.012 or 16 SG. Do I have to go exactly to 1.011 to kill the flukes. And so far the Gramma appears to be doing OK in hypo with 1.95 ppm Copper Power. Next time I do hypo I will not add Copper Power.

I meant to say I calibrated my refractometer.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks. The flukes were definitely larger in size, so I will assume they were Neobenedenia and shoot for hypo for 35 days. My next question regards level of hypo. I calibrated my hydrometer using purchased calibration fluid. After my second freshwater change this morning, my QT is at a salinity of 1.012 or 16 SG. Do I have to go exactly to 1.011 to kill the flukes. And so far the Gramma appears to be doing OK in hypo with 1.95 ppm Copper Power. Next time I do hypo I will not add Copper Power.

1.012 will work just fine, as long as it is an accurate measurement.

Jay

 

[cmkeen0113]

Hopefully my refractometer is accurate. I calibrated it using purchased calibration fluid. I'm not sure there is anything else I can do to make sure I have an accurate salinity reading. I will say it is not the easiest thing to do to calibrate a refractometer when you are dealing with eyesight to get the measurement.

 

[MPCReefer]

Prazi dosed this evening. Hopeful it will work cuz the little guy has not eaten in 3 days. Still hiding out in the rock but definitely hanging on.

 

[cmkeen0113]

Prazi dosed this evening. Hopeful it will work cuz the little guy has not eaten in 3 days. Still hiding out in the rock but definitely hanging on.

Sure hope he makes it. In a short time I got pretty attached to my male Lyretail Anthias and felt really bad after he died post FW dip for flukes. It was a hard way to learn about flukes and dipping/baths.

 

[MPCReefer]

Unfortunately lost the gramma. That's 0 for 2 in the ol' quarantine tank. Frustrating. Not sure where to go from here. Display is nearly ready for fish but have to get the QT figured out first. Fish did not have any signs of ich or velvet to my untrained eye. I believe, tho not certain that the scrape on his left side may have come from a hermit before I discovered he had not made it.