Gripe! Gripe!
- Thread starter JackoChang
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_Alex_
Valuable Member
like already said its all a matter of what people are willing to pay... look at it like new cell phones coming out, they are $300-$700 and in a month or 2 another one is coming out that is better than the one you just bought for $500 but that phone you got is still costing $375 becuase people are still willing to buy the older item at that price becuase THEY WANT TO! you can tell people how to spend there money, but there goign to one way or another buy that $1000 eye if they want it bad enough.
reeferman
Community Member
they charge so much so they can live the lifestyle so eloquently put by a very well known vendor:"heres how my day goes,stare at corals,play basketball,stare at corals,play golf,stare at corals,eat some lunch,stare at corals and so on.we are the ones that have to go to a real job and work our butts off to afford the nicer pieces so they can stroll the beach all day!im not complaining though,if i could do it,i would too,its the American way.theres a sucker born every minute!
PR_Reefers
Reefer 4 Life!
It's simply economics... Price & demand are directly proportional... especially if supply is low!
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Rskillz
Active Member
You act like we can go out and dive and collect our own corals. People are griping because vendors stranglehold the nicest pieces and mark it up. I don't see how that is so hard to understand. There is a MIDDLE MAN between us and wholesalers. Are you suggesting we all start a business to get the nicest stuff first?
You are very very pro high-price vendors, and that comes off in your posts and modding. IMO you should add an option to block a vendor, so when I look down at new threads by vendors I WANT to see (WWC, Reefkoi, etc) I can not see the crap hype threads and childish threads by others.
You are very very pro high-price vendors, and that comes off in your posts and modding. IMO you should add an option to block a vendor, so when I look down at new threads by vendors I WANT to see (WWC, Reefkoi, etc) I can not see the crap hype threads and childish threads by others.
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nixer
Valuable Member
i wouldnt say high end vendors. i hardly consider a vendor that hypes up every coral and has these naming threads they produce to hype up said corals high end.
also i would surely like to see unmolested photos which we dont see hardly any of anymore.
also i would surely like to see unmolested photos which we dont see hardly any of anymore.
Dave3112
2500 Club Member
All it takes is a business license brother! It is less than $200 for one. Then get a tax ID number and you are all set to get wholesale prices. If you think you can do better I'm sure a lot of people will be grateful if you will sell things for what you buy them for. I will be a customer if you do.
Nuocmam
Valuable Member
I'm not griping or hating on anybody. Sometimes it all depends on what one person thinks something is worth. I think my wife likes it when people comment on the rock on her hand for instance. She finds value in it. I on the other hand think it's just a rock somebody dug out of the ground and really could care less.
I'm really not sure where you're finding a problem with vendors- do you also hate car dealers? Fast food chains? Grocery Stores? All these places are 'middle-men' and in every single instance, the consumer dictates the pricing- not the vendor.
You presuppose an inherent 'right' to the nicest pieces by the public- this is where you really would do better in a society that's more socialistic- all are treated equally. In a capitalism society, such as the USA, those with the most money have the most purchasing power, and thus tend to gain access to the 'nicest' stuff- be it corals, cars, purses, televisions, houses, flooring, tools, dining tables, whatever- You act like something is different with corals, why?
+1 to this! I'd rather 'grow' a cool diamond with a funky unique pattern, but nope, dig a chunk of worthless material out of the ground and it's somehow amazing (worthless in terms of no functional value, man-made diamonds are superior for all commercial/industrial applications- so diamonds have zero inherent functional value, only value is entirely based on people wanting it to show off it's price tag)
Nuocmam
Valuable Member
If you look around your house or even maybe the shoes on your feet you will possibly find that it was made in another country for very little and then sold to us for much more. Of course along the way people have to get paid. You alone are the ultimate judge of what you buy. And the market does decide price. Turn on the TV or read the paper. The price of crude oil seems to change daily. Drive by the closest gas station to your house. And try to remember how many times in 1 week the price per gallon changes. How many points was the DOW or S&P up or down since this morning?
Rskillz
Active Member
Apples and oranges dude. Cars are made up of thousands of differing parts of varying quality. Most people are willing to pay extra for quality craftsmanship and labor. Corals grow in the sea. The only relevant comparison you made is grocery stores, which sell natural items; even then it's a stretch. Almost every other item you mention is manufactured and manmade. Corals are NOT.
Also, did you just watch a documentary on socialism or something? Did you just get back from Scandinavia? I find all the oblique references to capitalism and socialism a bit misplaced and naive. You seem to presume people here lack the most basic grasp of our free-market system, which is REALLY underestimating our user base.
Generally speaking, I try not to get involved in these discussions. First off, vendors do have prices to offset and many vendors are very reasonably priced. That said, I have to disagree with this statement;
In many cases, prices within the coral community have nothing to do with supply and demand. Want a recent example, look at the Happy Coral PE - when it it the market the vendor/namer kept his prices somewhat reasonable - other vendors were trying to market it under a different name a $60 per polyp and I'm sure some people bought it for that. Others were able to buy entire large colonies for $30 for the entire colony from an LFS. Those online vendors had no more invested in the cost of that coral or any other than those LFS's did. It had nothing to do with supply and demand - it was pure and simple; greed. In reality on-line vending has much less to do with supply and demand than local vending does.
IMO, one of the major differences between those you mention Brian and online vendors is pure and simple the target audience. A LFS or any type of local store has to sell to the local population and prices are much more reasonable. On-line vendors have the advantage of a much larger target audience, and therefore online sales may or may not have anything to do with supply and demand.
The bottom line here folks is to be a smart consumer - just because a vendor or a hobbiest tells you that a coral is ultra rare and worth $600 per polyp or eye, doesn't really mean it is. It also doesn't mean you have to throw your money at it. Car dealers are always going to ask way more than the fair market price, every once in a while, they get some sucker to bite and pay the higher price. When they do, they take home a bigger profit. It is the nature of sales, doesn't mean we have to support it. That is the nice thing about the free-market American culture vs. socialism, we don't have to pay the higher prices just because someone wants to charge them. We also don't have to be silent about the fact that we don't care for the higher prices.
Justify it all you want, the bottom line is a vendor (like any salesmen) is going to get as many $$$ as they possibly can for their corals. Like it or not, they are in the business to make a profit - its not only about paying the cost of their overhead, its also about how much profit they make by the end of the day. I'll give you one 100% guarantee, regardless of costs, overhead, supply or anything else; if nobody pays the high price for that coral, the price will come down.
In many cases, prices within the coral community have nothing to do with supply and demand. Want a recent example, look at the Happy Coral PE - when it it the market the vendor/namer kept his prices somewhat reasonable - other vendors were trying to market it under a different name a $60 per polyp and I'm sure some people bought it for that. Others were able to buy entire large colonies for $30 for the entire colony from an LFS. Those online vendors had no more invested in the cost of that coral or any other than those LFS's did. It had nothing to do with supply and demand - it was pure and simple; greed. In reality on-line vending has much less to do with supply and demand than local vending does.
IMO, one of the major differences between those you mention Brian and online vendors is pure and simple the target audience. A LFS or any type of local store has to sell to the local population and prices are much more reasonable. On-line vendors have the advantage of a much larger target audience, and therefore online sales may or may not have anything to do with supply and demand.
The bottom line here folks is to be a smart consumer - just because a vendor or a hobbiest tells you that a coral is ultra rare and worth $600 per polyp or eye, doesn't really mean it is. It also doesn't mean you have to throw your money at it. Car dealers are always going to ask way more than the fair market price, every once in a while, they get some sucker to bite and pay the higher price. When they do, they take home a bigger profit. It is the nature of sales, doesn't mean we have to support it. That is the nice thing about the free-market American culture vs. socialism, we don't have to pay the higher prices just because someone wants to charge them. We also don't have to be silent about the fact that we don't care for the higher prices.
Justify it all you want, the bottom line is a vendor (like any salesmen) is going to get as many $$$ as they possibly can for their corals. Like it or not, they are in the business to make a profit - its not only about paying the cost of their overhead, its also about how much profit they make by the end of the day. I'll give you one 100% guarantee, regardless of costs, overhead, supply or anything else; if nobody pays the high price for that coral, the price will come down.
Troylee
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This is great hahahahah!!!! One thing you got to understand and I know first hand a Lfs will get me anything I want "so they say" here is what happens..... I said I want a fuego dudes like yeah no problem here is the catch yeah it's like $60 for a frag and the vendors sell it for $150 a inch.... In order to buy that said coral you have to buy $1000.00 worth of garbage corals and sit on it to get that said coral!!!!! For every one hot piece you gotta spend a couple grand on the norm.... When they have a tank full of the norm it sits they nickle and dime it and don't make squat off it really with all the time and effort involved then comes the money piece this is the mark up this is where they have to make there dollar so yeah it makes sense!!!!! There is some high end vendors who only get that one piece they pay top dollar to other vendors to get it with out the garbage that comes with it so yeah those prices make sense to me...... I would love any one single vendor or person on here to tell me this isn't true....;) been there done that lol.....
Docstomper
Community Member
Debeer's anyone? Only release LE challice and others slowly and keep the price high! If they flooded the market with LE chalice well then there wouldnt be any LE chalice. Keeping the "rare" corals at a high price will keep things more interesting. Some individual's just won 1000 to Sexy Corals. They will probably get to enjoy 5 total corals. lol. But now they have a few "Gems". Keep the prices high to make me feel like I am missing something in my reef. This is the way America does it, IE Abercrombie, Mossy Oak, Apple.
Honestly I just wish I had my own LE frag store so I can name them Mirv's Fema huricane katrina chalice medallion. Lol.
Honestly I just wish I had my own LE frag store so I can name them Mirv's Fema huricane katrina chalice medallion. Lol.
Troylee
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well for the fuego it is a $1000 i saw the paper work.... even $600 is still a lot to get that one piece.... it's just another reason besides the supply and demand etc....
Ah- but isn't that exactly a case of supply and demand? Take our sponsors here on R2R- they have a national audience (fairly large demand) but the same stock as a LFS (a set supply). Thus the prices they sell at, which may or may not be higher than a LFS, are certainly affected by supply vs demand, right?
Sorry! I didn't realize I should stick with purely harvested materials- lets go with then: Jewelry stores, Gas stations, Plant Nurseries, Lumber Yards, Water stores, Grocery stores (please address at least the produce section), Seafood Markets- and surely you see there's many many more examples- do you begrudge all these places for their 'middle man' markups? Or do you accept that they buy and sell at a profit to allow them to stay in business as well as profit from their labor/knowledge/expertise?
And I was entirely directing the socialism comments towards you, not towards the large population here as most seem to understand TANSTAAFL principle (There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch) which is inherent in a capitalism. You in particular are arguing against the idea's that capitalism's run on, so I was suggesting an alternative system you might enjoy more- No slights or any such thing, I certainly prefer a capitalism, but I can certainly understand the appeal of a socialism, it's just not my cup o' tea. Please expand on how it's naive of me to bring it up into a discussion on pricing and selling of something?
typically I've seen the places who deal in the higher-end stuff have the higher minimums- or will often have grade systems where you must buy so many of the lesser qualities to buy a higher quality. So even if not a $$ minimum, they're ensuring you can't just select only the premium stuff.
Demand, yes. Supply, no. Perceived supply perhaps. If I walk into a LFS and see 20 frags all of the same size and a $100 price tag on each, I'm not very likely to pay that price. On the other hand, if an online vendor posts up a single picture of a frag and places a $100 price tag on it, am I more likely to convince myself that it might be "rare" and therefore jump on the chance to purchase it? Meanwhile, the vendor may well have 20 of the same frag.
This is not true supply and demand, its perceived supply and demand. Many of the polyps we are currently seeing marketed at a price per polyp are purchased not by the polyp by vendors, but by the colony, often 100s of polyps per colony. But because the norm has become to pay a premium price per polyp, vendors now are smart enough to know they can get more money by selling by the polyp, so they fracture the colonies up and sell them off by the frag, thus greatly increasing their profit margin. Many vendors currently offer RDE or Even WW by the polyp when large mixed colonies can be purchased for a little bit of nothing from an LFS. You really think that anyone picks up one or two polyps and trans ships them?
That right there is a classic example of were the supply and demand of our economy breaks down - you really ok with gas companies make billions of dollars in profit every quarter? Again, a classic example of where price has absolutely nothing to do with supply - rather its more that they pretty much charge whatever price they want and you have to pay it.
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but surely 20 frags/local population is < 20 frags/national population- no? You're absolutely right- we talk ourselves often into how rare something is, and while I suppose many purchase based upon that, I really believe they're a minority- most people buy based on what they think looks cool. The potential rarity may affect that decision, but I don't believe it to be the primary rationality with the majority of people.
And certainly there's very few items being transhipped via the single polyp- just like there's very few SPS's being transhipped via 1" pieces, right? But if there's 20 colonies of 50 zoa's imported to the US, that's 1,000 polyps. Seems like a reasonable number sample for a 'rare' polyp, right? Lets say 60% never find their way online (I personally believe it's even less that make it 'online' but regardless) that's 400 polyps left for the entire national consumption of online buyers. 400 polyps/national consumers- is that rare or not? I'd say it's rare- but that's just my take on my numbers, so not worth much, lol.
As for gas- obviously I don't have a problem with it or else I wouldn't keep driving my truck and buying gas to do so- There is not a single person in the world forcing me to buy gas. Only person who's doing so is myself- so while I may cuss everytime I pass a gas station and see the price, I'm not going to hate anyone for it but myself. I could take the bus, I could walk, bicycle, convert my vehicle to propane/natural gas, or any number of other options for transit without gas- but I purchase the means that I prefer, and thus the cost I'm paying is apparently justified by me, the consumer. I see zero difference between it and my coral buying- if I didn't feel like paying the price, I shouldn't-there's alternatives. But just like my view on bicycling, I equally don't like the idea of having a tank full of xenia and GSP :tongue:
