Growing Impatient! (Kind of)

[jhadaway117]

So I’ve recently battled Dino’s and Cyano and then Dino’s again. Quite frankly my tank is doing better than ever, but the problem is I can’t keep phosphates at detectable level unless I dose daily.

This tank was at roughly 4 months ago with dry rock and live sand. I’m concerned that the phosphate issue will continue to give me issues. My coral are thriving and even showing good growth which is great, but i don’t want to continue to worry about these two again…lol. I’m even growing patches of coralline on my rocks and power heads!

So I guess my question is, at what point does the rock and sand become saturated with phosphate that I can become more comfortable with not testing every single day? Also, how can I induce growth of macro algae to outcompete the nuisance stuff? I use a Hannah checker by the way. This is a 33.5 gallon waterbox with roughly 25 lbs of dry rock. My parameters are below as well as pics of the tank.

Salinity 1.026
Alk 8.9
Nitrate 10 ppm
Phosphate .07 (Will be back to zero by morning)
Calcium 440
Mag 1300
PH (unknown) haven’t checked in a while and decided not to chase it) last I tested at 7.9)

 

[Timfish]

Macro algae can be pretty bad on their own as they dump DOCs into the water htat have been shown to disrupt coral microbiomes. FWIW sponges and biofilms are soaking up PO4. Cryptic sponges may sequester PO4 in the form of polyphosphate crystals. You didn't mention haw often or how much you feed your fish. You might try feeding for frequently to see if that helps.

 

[jhadaway117]

Macro algae can be pretty bad on their own as they dump DOCs into the water htat have been shown to disrupt coral microbiomes. FWIW sponges and biofilms are soaking up PO4. Cryptic sponges may sequester PO4 in the form of polyphosphate crystals. You didn't mention haw often or how much you feed your fish. You might try feeding for frequently to see if that helps.

You know I really didn’t think about the sponges. Now that you brought that up I do have several of these growing in low light spots and under ledges. Should I look at removing these?

 

[Timfish]

No, they're definitley beneficial. They recycle DOC putting it back in the food webs and are very important for reef ecosystems.

 

[jhadaway117]

No, they're definitley beneficial. They recycle DOC putting it back in the food webs and are very important for reef ecosystems.

Ok thanks. And by the way. I feed two to three times a day a combination of mysis/brine shrimp and sometimes pellets. Usually enough for them to consume in about 30 seconds. I stopped aminos and reef roids so I didn’t fuel any outbreaks. Current stock is an Anthias, blue damsel, royal gramma, mccoskers wrasse, and a watchman goby/pistol combo. Also have around 15 misc CUC snails along with an emerald crab.

 

[Timfish]

I definitely would add an urchin. Unlike most herbivores that will leave some algae behind to start regrwowing immediatley, urchins actually scour the surface free and have bigger appetites. Feeding corals is problematic since it's so species specific so wait until you have more experience with corals before you start feeding them again. And FWIW amino acids are organic nitrogen and epending on what's happening in your system can cause problems by sewing N/P ratios (that's the problem with trying to use N/P rtios is we can't easily measure the organic levels, just the inorganic ones).

Here's a data bomb if you're interested:

Fish Poop

https://archimer.ifremer.fr/doc/00842/95393/103168.pdf
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090115164607.htm
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1015895108

Feed

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848619310282
https://jssm.umt.edu.my/wp-content/...M-Volume-18-Number-1-January-2023-UPDATED.pdf
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0188568
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0207956
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ts_of_light_water_motion_and_artificial_foods


Urchins

https://response.restoration.noaa.g...um-invasive-algae-then-apply-sea-urchins.html
https://nmsfloridakeys.blob.core.wi...ia/archive/review/documents/keysreefresto.pdf

 

[Miami Reef]

can cause problems by sewing N/P ratios (that's the problem with trying to use N/P rtios is we can't easily measure the organic levels, just the inorganic ones).

Why are ratios important? As long as you have enough N & P, the ratio shouldn’t matter, right?

Dose more phosphate. It will take a while for the rocks to adsorb enough for the water column to become detectable.

I highly doubt the sponges are soaking up the phosphate. I believe it’s from the rocks and sand; you don’t even have that much sponge.

 

[jhadaway117]

I definitely would add an urchin. Unlike most herbivores that will leave some algae behind to start regrwowing immediatley, urchins actually scour the surface free and have bigger appetites. Feeding corals is problematic since it's so species specific so wait until you have more experience with corals before you start feeding them again. And FWIW amino acids are organic nitrogen and epending on what's happening in your system can cause problems by sewing N/P ratios (that's the problem with trying to use N/P rtios is we can't easily measure the organic levels, just the inorganic ones).

Here's a data bomb if you're interested:

Fish Poop

https://archimer.ifremer.fr/doc/00842/95393/103168.pdf
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090115164607.htm
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1015895108

Feed

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848619310282
https://jssm.umt.edu.my/wp-content/...M-Volume-18-Number-1-January-2023-UPDATED.pdf
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0188568
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0207956
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ts_of_light_water_motion_and_artificial_foods


Urchins

https://response.restoration.noaa.g...um-invasive-algae-then-apply-sea-urchins.html
https://nmsfloridakeys.blob.core.wi...ia/archive/review/documents/keysreefresto.pdf

Funny you say that. I have a Tuxedo Urchin in my other tank that was previously in this one. I moved him after the rock in my other tank started to get covered in a green macro algae. That tank is in the same situation as this one, although not as bad and no Dino bloom. It also has low phosphate issues even though it’s been set up for around 8 months. I’ll look at moving the urchin back over or just get another one.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

If phosphate keeps dropping back to zero by 24 h, I’d up the dose to double what you are using now and monitor it for a while.

 

[Timfish]

Why are ratios important? As long as you have enough N & P, the ratio shouldn’t matter, right?

Dose more phosphate. It will take a while for the rocks to adsorb enough for the water column to become detectable.

I highly doubt the sponges are soaking up the phosphate. I believe it’s from the rocks and sand; you don’t even have that much sponge.

You're right infering chasing N/P ratios is a waste of time. Until more research expands out understanding, as aquarists we should be fine as long as we stay above the .03 identified by Southampton researchers.

In the context of the OPs issue with PO4 dropping rapidly and our inability to test for organic forms of nitrogen, he needs to be careful adding amino acids as that has the potential to exacerbate his problem by skewing the N/P ratio towards the N side.


What evedance do you have to suggest sponges don't soak up phosphate? How have you determined "there's not that much" in this system and how much is needed? (Having moved a few system in my day I can attest there can be quite a bit of sponge hidden out of view.)

FWIW

My freind's system had a probelm 5 years ago with corals not doing well. (Pic is from two years.ago)

Turns out his PO4 was undetectable. His system had very little observable sponge also. But there was some and we sent off samples to one of the researchers whose paper I was familiar with. Samples were taken the day before dosing was done and three days after. Here's what he observed:



Where sponges the sole reason his PO4 was dropping, I seriously doubt it. But it was clear they were part of the issue. BIofilms have also been shown to sequester huge amounts of P as well as significantly altering the sorption properties of the rock they cover. Just repeating what's been parroted for a couple decades I don't see as helping understand what's happening in our systems.

 

[Miami Reef]

Just repeating what's been parroted for a couple decades I don't see as helping understand what's happening in our systems.

That’s rude of you to assume.

FWIW sponges and biofilms are soaking up PO4.

You made the claim.

What evedance do you have to suggest sponges don't soak up phosphate?

I did not make any claims. I stated my opinions.

This is what I said:

I highly doubt the sponges are soaking up the phosphate. I believe it’s from the rocks and sand; you don’t even have that much sponge.

This tank was at roughly 4 months ago with dry rock and live sand.

A 4 month old tank with new rock isn’t likely going to have abundant sponges.

What a new tank with dry rocks will have are fresh surfaces of calcium carbonate, which is well documented to adsorb significant PO4.

 

[jhadaway117]

That’s rude of you to assume.



You made the claim.



I did not make any claims. I stated my opinions.

This is what I said:







A 4 month old tank with new rock isn’t likely going to have abundant sponges.

What a new tank with dry rocks will have are fresh surfaces of calcium carbonate, which is well documented to adsorb significant PO4.

Unfortunately I don't have a dog in this fight seeing as I'm so new to the hobby. What I can say though is that I counted about 7 different locations yesterday afternoon with visible sponges. Ones like the pic I took and some pineapple sponges. So I'd assume that there are some hiding out that I can't see. I've also started developing some corraline which from my understanding means my system should be on the right track.

On the other hand, until I started dosing I never once had readable phosphates levels. I knew it was a problem so I started over feeding and dosing aminos to try and elevate them which didn't work. It wasn't until the dinos showed up that I started dosing. And the sponges didn't show up until like 3 months in. So my assumption has always been that it was because of the dry rock or the fact that I'm impatient and added too many coral before they system had a chance to mature...lol

I dose AFR daily to maintain alk, calc, and magnesium as well.

 

[Miami Reef]

On the other hand, until I started dosing I never once had readable phosphates levels. I knew it was a problem so I started over feeding and dosing aminos to try and elevate them which didn't work. It wasn't until the dinos showed up that I started dosing. And the sponges didn't show up until like 3 months in. So my assumption has always been that it was because of the dry rock or the fact that I'm impatient and added too many coral before they system had a chance to mature...lol

That’s all I needed to hear. I personally believe it’s from the rocks. Fortunately, it’s a very easy problem to solve.

Others might have a different opinion, and that’s OK. We are all reefers who want the best for each other.

No matter what’s causing the low PO4, the only reasonable solution is to add more.

Sounds like your tank is progressing nicely. Keep it up!

 

[sixty_reefer]

@jhadaway117

You have been given a bomb of information, I would just look at keeping the phosphate detectable for the time being.

It’s a new tank and both arguments are very plausible, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if it was a combination of all the above. Both aragonite surfaces and biofilms and sponges colonising the dead rock and sand looking at establishing a equilibrium.
Unfortunately there is not a reliable way in today hobby to determine which on it is, the best you could do right now is to keep a close look at both nitrate and phosphate until the tank gains balance.
Being new, reading on both subjects would only be beneficial for a little of general knowledge in the hobby if that’s something you may be interested.

 

[jhadaway117]

@jhadaway117

You have been given a bomb of information, I would just look at keeping the phosphate detectable for the time being.

It’s a new tank and both arguments are very plausible, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if it was a combination of all the above. Both aragonite surfaces and biofilms and sponges colonising the dead rock and sand looking at establishing a equilibrium.
Unfortunately there is not a reliable way in today hobby to determine which on it is, the best you could do right now is to keep a close look at both nitrate and phosphate until the tank gains balance.
Being new, reading on both subjects would only be beneficial for a little of general knowledge in the hobby if that’s something you may be interested.

Absolutely agree. I'll take what knowledge I can get and run with it. It's definitely demanding and my wife thinks it's funny how I'm always doing my so called "Science Experiments" as she says, when I'm testing parameters. But honestly, that's why I like it. It's a challenge!

I've already gone from a 13.5, to a 35 gallon, and now I want bigger! My wife caught me looking at 150 gallon tanks last night and said don't even think about it! lol

 

[sixty_reefer]

Absolutely agree. I'll take what knowledge I can get and run with it. It's definitely demanding and my wife thinks it's funny how I'm always doing my so called "Science Experiments" as she says, when I'm testing parameters. But honestly, that's why I like it. It's a challenge!

I've already gone from a 13.5, to a 35 gallon, and now I want bigger! My wife caught me looking at 150 gallon tanks last night and said don't even think about it! lol

You certainly come to the right place, if you need help with anything else in future don’t hesitate in asking, there is plenty of friendly experienced aquarists in this forum that won’t hesitate in helping were they can.