There is also a TON of anecdotal evidence of people going fallow for <76 days (45, 60) and ich returning. I believe @4FordFamily had that unpleasant experience in one of his tanks.
Has anyone read this on Ick?
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There is also a TON of anecdotal evidence of people going fallow for <76 days (45, 60) and ich returning. I believe @4FordFamily had that unpleasant experience in one of his tanks.
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That could very well be user error in treating or in the DT.
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Not saying it can't possibly last 72 days but for a simple article written to help the average hobbyist I think it is just fine to write what they did as at least 99% will be fine.
That article can be found here: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1018360323287
Relevant section is quoted below:
OP
OP
I understand your point here...except if you were really trying to help the average hobbyist, you would put the 35 days in this place to be safe....right (since this has been known for over 20 years)?
There is a possiblilty of 72 days not providing a "safe system" what then? These organisms exist in the wild yet they do not present like they do in a captive system. Why is that and should we consider other alternatives to both the captive system and care of fish? There are organisms that present visually similar symptoms so without microscopic examination how does the average hobbiest make accurate diagnosis to provide the best treatment. You can make all sorts of claims with this method or that method and yet the cries for help are here each day for sick fish even after "going fallow" for the recommended period. Some of the recent threads have mentioned TTM and going fallow for the recommended period to only have the fish show symptoms with in a week or two of returning to the display tank. What then?
IME from helping people online and advising in person, going fallow for 76 days is working in most cases. Of course, there never will be 100% success. And when a fallow period fails it is almost impossible to determine whether improper treatment for the surviving infected fish, cross contamination, aerosol transmission or the fallow period itself is to blame. All we can do is continue to operate on the best available information we have on hand.
wowkingjames
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Thanks for the info.
4FordFamily
Tang, Angel, and Wrasse Nerd!
I can tell you 35 days will not cut it. My 72 days did not. It's pretty well documented that ich can have a much longer life cycle than 35 days.
For what it's worth, humble spends more time on this forum helping others, studying disease, testing theories, and being involved in every facet of this than anyone I know. The man probably knows what he's talking about.
For what it's worth, humble spends more time on this forum helping others, studying disease, testing theories, and being involved in every facet of this than anyone I know. The man probably knows what he's talking about.
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melypr1985
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Brew12
Electrical Gru
Along with this, I think it is important to remember something else. We know that there are hypo resistant strains of ich. As more places practice hypo to treat ich, it will shift the balance and make it more likely we will encounter hypo resistant ich. If we start getting a large number of vendors and hobbyists practicing a 30 day fallow period, it will make it more likely that longer lived strains of ich will become predominant.
Yet the aquaculture industry has addressed and overcome many of the problems in captive systems but we should just ignore the tech for the hobbiest right? Public aquariums have overcome many of the problems of captive systems but we should just ignore those protocols right?
This is a problem without a solution to just assume someone deviated from the protocol or some aerosol tranmission occurred. Unless the average hobbiest can overcome these problems the hobby will continue to suffer. Now there are indications of an increase in problems at the wholesale and distribution level not to mention the local fish store. Unless we find protocols that are effective throughout the distribution system we will continue to see the hobby decline.
We have to accept the fact that there is no irradication of some of these parasites but only limited control in a captive system and help more people become successful in long term management. Medication has a place but we should be careful in its use due to the increase in resistant organisms due to improper medication use. We are creating resistant strains that could enter back into the natural system and lead to even more problems in the future. Group think or only accepting one solution is a problem in any enterprise. Medication is not the answer for the distribution system. The price point necessary to support that method will not be supported by the hobbiest in the majority of cases. You would not be able to provide "clean" room systems with TTM to prevent cross contamination without major expense in the distribution system. I suspect that we would only succede in providing fish with weakend immune systems due to the killing of natural flora and fauna necessary to keep the fish healthy. We have learned this truth in human biology so I suspect the same is true in other vertabrates.
Success is not success unless it can be easily reproduced by others to provide the desired outcome.
I would love to read more about the techniques/protocols they are using. Links please?
Brew12
Electrical Gru
I really need to pull together and post all my thoughts on a diseased managed system. There really are a large number of pros and cons with it. The biggest con is that all but the most advanced aquarists won't be able to successfully do it over the long term.
Just a few random ones. Getting fish immune to something like ich or velvet isn't easy. You not only have to start with healthy fish but you need to do something to prevent the parasite from reaching a level that will kill them prior to them becoming immune.
Keeping immune fish immune is also a challenge. Even if a fish comes from the ocean with an immunity, there is evidence that fish can lose their immunity in less than a week if under stress. Their immunity seriously drops off if not exposed to the parasite for more than 6 months. This means you must maintain at least some level of parasite in your system or you must expose fish to a new source of the parasite regularly.
A single exposure to a high stressor, such as a failed heater, will immediately cause a temporary reduction in the fishes immunity making it highly susceptible to infection.
There are some fish that may never develop a natural immunity. Since this method required continuous exposure to parasites to work, these fish will always show symptoms.
On the positive side, you never have to worry missing a disease slipping through your QT protocols. QT is still necessary, but it becomes more about improving the fish's health and reducing stress from acquisition prior to adding it to the disease infected DT. Since you shouldn't need meds, the fish aren't exposed to chemicals that may reduce their life expectancy.
It is often implied that an ich managed system is nothing more than reducing stress and good nutrition. While those are critical, that only tells part of the story and makes it sound much easier than it actually is.
Again, these are far from my complete thoughts. This is a very complex issue.
Just a few random ones. Getting fish immune to something like ich or velvet isn't easy. You not only have to start with healthy fish but you need to do something to prevent the parasite from reaching a level that will kill them prior to them becoming immune.
Keeping immune fish immune is also a challenge. Even if a fish comes from the ocean with an immunity, there is evidence that fish can lose their immunity in less than a week if under stress. Their immunity seriously drops off if not exposed to the parasite for more than 6 months. This means you must maintain at least some level of parasite in your system or you must expose fish to a new source of the parasite regularly.
A single exposure to a high stressor, such as a failed heater, will immediately cause a temporary reduction in the fishes immunity making it highly susceptible to infection.
There are some fish that may never develop a natural immunity. Since this method required continuous exposure to parasites to work, these fish will always show symptoms.
On the positive side, you never have to worry missing a disease slipping through your QT protocols. QT is still necessary, but it becomes more about improving the fish's health and reducing stress from acquisition prior to adding it to the disease infected DT. Since you shouldn't need meds, the fish aren't exposed to chemicals that may reduce their life expectancy.
It is often implied that an ich managed system is nothing more than reducing stress and good nutrition. While those are critical, that only tells part of the story and makes it sound much easier than it actually is.
Again, these are far from my complete thoughts. This is a very complex issue.
OP
OP
Lowell lemon:
If aquaculture systems were without problems, explain why large aquaculture facilities like booahs reef, Proaquatix's, sea and reef, etc have issues with brooks from time to time, or when they have issues with ick occasionally....I know this from the people that run the facilities, so it is not speculation. There are many issues in this hobby, most hobbiests can not introduce a 50k option into their systems either so the "tech" they have used is only as good as you can afford then...by that reasoning only wealthy people should have tanks then...
Furthermore, aquaculture systems do not bring wild caught fish into any of their systems without a minimum of 6 month qt, ORA uses a 1 year qt...seems like they haven't overcome anything except have a system that allows them the ability to irradiate anything in the fish that are caught for breeding stock. If we could all QT our fish for 1 year, our systems would be all disease free....but who can actually do that?
Paul B
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I love threads with ich life cycle charts and number of days that ich can live at what temperature and how many days they maintain their immunity, if in fact they can become immune and how much stress a fish needs to lose it's immunity or how it's irradiated and if they can dance. I get all tingly when I read about this stuff. 
Hello Humble, Merideth and Brew.
Hello Humble, Merideth and Brew.
TheEngineer
Formerly icecool2
I was wondering when you were going to show up...I love threads with ich life cycle charts and number of days that ich can live at what temperature and how many days they maintain their immunity, if in fact they can become immune and how much stress a fish needs to lose it's immunity or how it's irradiated and if they can dance. I get all tingly when I read about this stuff.
Hello Humble, Merideth and Brew.
@ebushrow I assumed by "aquaculture industry" he meant fish for human consumption because those cannot be exposed to any harsh chemicals. MMM... that fish tastes like copper. Most do keep their fish in hypo-like conditions so parasites & worms will stay at bay. 100% eradication is not the objective.
However, if he's inferring that collectors, wholesalers, etc. have their disease problems under control somehow... I mean, that would just be a ridiculous thing to say because then all these diseases wouldn't be making their way down to the end user i.e. LFS & hobbyists.
Also, most public aquariums I am familiar with run all new fish thru a pretty rigorous QT protocol. Using various medications/chemicals, dependent upon the species, not too different than from what I advise on here. The Aquarium of the Americas in New Orleans, for example, actually quarantines all fish at an off-site location to avoid any possibility of cross contamination. I guess they don't have too much confidence in natural immunity to safeguard their prized specimens.
BTW, hello Paul.
Most do keep their fish in hypo-like conditions so parasites & worms will stay at bay. 100% eradication is not the objective.However, if he's inferring that collectors, wholesalers, etc. have their disease problems under control somehow... I mean, that would just be a ridiculous thing to say because then all these diseases wouldn't be making their way down to the end user i.e. LFS & hobbyists.
Also, most public aquariums I am familiar with run all new fish thru a pretty rigorous QT protocol. Using various medications/chemicals, dependent upon the species, not too different than from what I advise on here. The Aquarium of the Americas in New Orleans, for example, actually quarantines all fish at an off-site location to avoid any possibility of cross contamination. I guess they don't have too much confidence in natural immunity to safeguard their prized specimens.
BTW, hello Paul.
OP
OP
I was going down the wrong thought track......on the right track...don't commercial fisheries get the fish and collect the eggs like a clownfish breeder anyways and keep adding them back to stock? This would cause the same issue too wouldn't it? (I don't know the answer to this and I'm not sure what that would do to genetic diversity ....really I do, I just don't know if they care about it )... I also think that the majority (if not all) of commercial fisheries are fresh water....I'm not sure that they have the plethora of diseases that marine species are susceptible to. Seems like the treatments for them are also much cheaper and have better success as they are for eating not for looking at...is this fair to say? If it is, we arent we really comparing apples to oranges then here.@ebushrow I assumed by "aquaculture industry" he meant fish for human consumption because those cannot be exposed to any harsh chemicals. MMM... that fish tastes like copper.
However, if he's inferring that collectors, wholesalers, etc. have their disease problems under control somehow... I mean, that would just be a ridiculous thing to say because then all these diseases wouldn't be making their way down to the end user i.e. LFS & hobbyists.
Also, most public aquariums I am familiar with run all new fish thru a pretty rigorous QT protocol. Using various medications/chemicals, dependent upon the species, not too different than from what I advise on here. The Aquarium of the Americas in New Orleans, for example, actually quarantines all fish at an off-site location to avoid any possibility of cross contamination. I guess they don't have too much confidence in natural immunity to safeguard their prized specimens.
BTW, hello Paul.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
The University of Florida offers a very good guide on the best way to set up an aquaculture system that would also applies to the marine hobby trade.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa099
If all the importers of fish would follow this protocol, life would be much easier on the LFS and hobbyists.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa099
If all the importers of fish would follow this protocol, life would be much easier on the LFS and hobbyists.
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