Hawaii fish ban

[areefer01]

Day is going great - thanks for checking.

I hear blah blah blah - you're repeating yourself with ton of words and not much content.

You said the following, back it up. Why?

Did you see who you quoted?

Edit: I see you caught it. Look - I'm a hobbyist just like you. We all have our budgets and break points. I'm not paying anyone a stipend to keep their animals so have no say. I also try and be careful to not say things like better or best regardless of what we are talking about. I can't prove it nor is it my line of work.

The bla bla bla part you noted maybe is correct about me. I tend to harp on the price point because it seems a stupid hill to die on. In my opinion. None of us know how much effort it takes to bring a fish to market. The fact that some are available it at least gives us option regardless of what our moral compass is set to.

Hopefully that makes sense. Also I was being sincere about asking about your day. It does matter to everyone and all that I ask because after all this is a hobby that we all share a common interest in.

 

[BZOFIQ]

It's very fair. The same reason I buy QT'd fish even if they are more expensive. Buying captive bred offers inherent values over wild caught when it comes to disease and hardiness. Not here to debate the ethics on reef2reef even though this does play into my decision (along side the hardiness and disease aspect) and I'm assuming for others. Namely the amount of death to get your single wild caught fish into the store. Not sure what your point is otherwise, sorry.

I understand your point perhaps they do come with less disease and are hardier - I don't know that.

Many, many, many of my friends and I were previously able to obtain healthy specimens from Hawaii for a fraction. It's not like all wild caught fish are diseased and doomed - that isn't/wasn't the case at all. Let's be frank, most fish in the trade today still come wild-caught and 99% of us are happy with it.

Not so long ago I could buy 5-7 yellow tangs at pre-ban prices for the price of one AC fish. I can quarantine the hell out of them and have a group like I was planning to. If a person wanted to get one, they can try getting a healthy one 7 times, not that they should but we weren't going into the ethics discussion.

In my opinion, at these inflated prices, they are NOT better, far from it.

Saying that, I have a lot of fairly priced AC fish that Petco carried in the past year they were either ORA or Biota; nothing against it. Did I buy them because they were aqua cultured? No. I bought them because they looked healthy and were available at the time I was looking for them.

 

[2020 Worst Year]

I understand where you're coming from but the expense of our fish isn't to teach better behavior but may be a good result or side effect of it. When we captive-breed yellow tang it's at minimum 3 months of skilled labor, feeds, rent, electricity, etc. in each batch of fish while to collect the same number we produce in a quarter could be caught in a few boat trips from the wild.

We encourage hobbyists that purchase from us to take care of the animals we breed because we have taken such expert care of them for months prior to shipping them out to customers. So it's not just cost but the effort associated with it.

It's the same reason why a 17 year old buys a beater car rather than a BMW. Maybe it's better to make mistakes on cheaper, abundant species that are constantly replacing themselves in the wild over an important herbivore. There are many "jellybean species" on the reefs that are constantly replacing themselves with already short lifespans why cut an estimated 15-25 year lifespan short because of a lesson. No one is learning a lesson on a peppermint angelfish nor should they. I encourage beginners to start reefing with gobies, blennies, or damselfish. The Pratt Institute teaches students about the aquarium hobby by first taking care of aiptasia in a jar before anything else.

I'm also not one to anthropomorphize the fish or get into the ethics or sustainability of wild collection but when a fish's sole purpose being bred in aquariums for aquariums, accepts prepared diets, lives through aquarium life and the fluctuations that entails why is there a need to take it from the wild? It's the reason we breed mandarins, with the incredibly low survival rate from the wild you're lucky if one lives past 3 months and they're even microspeared from the wild.

can you send some captive bred mandarins to the fish stores in the UK

 

[Solasis]

I understand your point perhaps they do come with less disease and are hardier - I don't know that.

Many, many, many of my friends and I were previously able to obtain healthy specimens from Hawaii for a fraction. It's not like all wild caught fish are diseased and doomed - that isn't/wasn't the case at all. Let's be frank, most fish in the trade today still come wild-caught and 99% of us are happy with it.

Not so long ago I could buy 5-7 yellow tangs at pre-ban prices for the price of one AC fish. I can quarantine the hell out of them and have a group like I was planning to. If a person wanted to get one, they can try getting a healthy one 7 times, not that they should but we weren't going into the ethics discussion.

In my opinion, at these inflated prices, they are NOT better, far from it.

Saying that, I have a lot of fairly priced AC fish that Petco carried in the past year they were either ORA or Biota; nothing against it. Did I buy them because they were aqua cultured? No. I bought them because they looked healthy and were available at the time I was looking for them.

That's fair. When I say less disease, I want to be clear I'm talking about directly from the breeder. A biosecure supply chain for captive bred fish adds a lot of value to me. When that fish touches the LFS it'll still get infected like a wild one. The only advantage I can think of is it being less stressed from capture. These captive bred fish also just eat basically everything that they can get their mouth on.

Yellow tangs will always be a touchy subject imo, since you are right about their price. It's ingrained in most reefers heads. I remember a decade ago the LFS near me would do a $20 deal. The thing is, Hawaii has been closed for years, and most importantly closed after covid. Who knows what their price would be if it were to ever open again. Marine fish today have gotten very expensive in general over the past few years. Would they be cheaper than aqua culture? Probably. But I don't think it'd be to the same degree at all. To me, it seems pointless to debate over a wild caught price that'll never return. We don't have a comparison to make here.

To me, I do see the value of supporting aquaculture as I believe it's very important to our hobby. Many species still available today from it that otherwise would be gone, or species that were very difficult in captivity made possible.

 

[Tony Thompson]

can you send some captive bred mandarins to the fish stores in the UK

Captive bred mandarins are already available in the UK. Robin Manion at Pholium UK , breeds them in the UK, you can also get any Biota CB fish , ORA CB and Bali Aquarich CB fish from your local fish store in the UK. Just ask them to get you one from the wholesaler Tropical MARINE centre UK.

 

[2020 Worst Year]

Captive bred mandarins are already available in the UK. Robin Manion at Pholium UK , breeds them in the UK, you can also get any Biota CB fish , ORA CB and Bali Aquarich CB fish from your local fish store in the UK. Just ask them to get you one from the wholesaler Tropical MARINE centre UK.

thanks for info

 

[litsoh]

Define cheap? You can still obtain one. Let us say the hobbyist is average at keeping fish. Picks up a Yellow Tang from Biota and paid $200.00 US. That is a conservative estimate because A shipping will vary by location and B I personally add an item or two be it swag or corals to make shipping make sense. The Yellow Tang will be small and young. I won't know the precise age but I will know it is anywhere from 8 months to a year or so old. Guessing they can live anywhere from 10 to 30 years in captivity (remember I said average hobbyist - we are all different and, well, Murphy) but let us pick 10 years. The cost per day for owning that fish is maybe $0.05. That is cheap for a healthy animal that will live a long time when properly cared for. And you will be able to enjoy its full journey...

True story. Cuban Basslets used to be banned in the US or very limited and priced over $3,500.00 US dollars. Thanks to Biota's effort they are readily available for $600.00.

Sorry, I was speaking in terms of my circumstances. In my case, an alternative would be to just go out and catch one myself or have a friend do it and just buy them lunch as thanks.

 

[albano]

…have a friend do it and just buy them lunch as thanks.

You better buy them lunch, or they’ll eat the tang!

 

[litsoh]

You better buy them lunch, or they’ll eat the tang!

As long as they share with me too LOL

 

[AlohaJacklyn]

Some mentioned it above but it's because it's a commercial collection ban. Residents are still able to collect fish for their personal tanks for personal use and I've also heard of stores or service companies able to sell collected fish throughout the islands if collected before the ban. We're able to sell them because they're all captive-bred and not taken from the wild, there is another company on the island also working on breeding Hawaiian ornamentals so if another individual is breeding any Hawaiian fish either personally or commercially they're able to be sold.

We don't allow any non-employees at our breeding facility to protect Biosecurity unfortunately and that facility only regularly breeds 2-4 species of fish at a given time. So there isn't much of a selection like you'd find from a local fish store.

Another issue with it is the government doesn't discrimate between someone sending their friend collected species and people skirting around the law. I recall at the last MACNA in Milwaukee there was a vendor who was bragging that they skirted around the law with their "friend" shipping them dozens of yellow tang before the show and that prompted an investigation DLNR and we still see wild collected enter mainland so there is smuggling continuing to happen.


This sounds like a great idea I can ask the team about this, I don't see why not.

Okay but if someone had a bunch of personal tangs, before the ban and if they were also breeding them, would that mean the person could still sell them? And how would DLNR know the difference between wild caught and captive bred if they were shipped? I'm just curious what the gray areas are.

Also curious... I know we are still allowed to collect for personal use and I also know it's illegal to release any fish back into the ocean. So let's say someone has a bunch of tangs and then we later needed to break down our tanks for whatever reason, how are they supposed to rehome them Can we rehome to other locals but not rehome to family on the mainland?

Thank you for helping with clarification

 

[Biota_Marine]

Okay but if someone had a bunch of personal tangs, before the ban and if they were also breeding them, would that mean the person could still sell them? And how would DLNR know the difference between wild caught and captive bred if they were shipped? I'm just curious what the gray areas are.

Also curious... I know we are still allowed to collect for personal use and I also know it's illegal to release any fish back into the ocean. So let's say someone has a bunch of tangs and then we later needed to break down our tanks for whatever reason, how are they supposed to rehome them Can we rehome to other locals but not rehome to family on the mainland?

Thank you for helping with clarification

DLNR could likely help you out with clarification especially on rehoming them. I know mainland US many public aquariums take rehomed fish when they grow to large for aquariums, especially on the freshwater side so it may be similar.

One of the main issues is there is no difference between captive-bred or wild collected in appearance so someone could claim they are breeding them and thus attempt to sell or export them. To our knowledge no personal hobbyist has been able breed any tang species at home. For the yellow tang only our facility and a small batch from a facility in Japan are the only successes I'm aware of. I would assume they would need some inspection and proof and the fines for doing that are very high so I wouldn't imagine it is worth it.

 

[Biota_Marine]

can you send some captive bred mandarins to the fish stores in the UK

We sold out of the last few batches quickly in the US but have larger batches on the horizon. I expect some Biota Mandarins in the UK before the end of the year.

 

[AlohaJacklyn]

DLNR could likely help you out with clarification especially on rehoming them. I know mainland US many public aquariums take rehomed fish when they grow to large for aquariums, especially on the freshwater side so it may be similar.

One of the main issues is there is no difference between captive-bred or wild collected in appearance so someone could claim they are breeding them and thus attempt to sell or export them. To our knowledge no personal hobbyist has been able breed any tang species at home. For the yellow tang only our facility and a small batch from a facility in Japan are the only successes I'm aware of. I would assume they would need some inspection and proof and the fines for doing that are very high so I wouldn't imagine it is worth it.

I'm asking theoretically. Like how are you able to breed, sell and export without them being confiscated? I know they are impossible to tell the difference on so how would anyone know the difference when seen coming through customs or something? Let's say a hobbyist actually figured out how to breed them. Then what are the rules?

 

[Lionfish hunter]

I'm asking theoretically. Like how are you able to breed, sell and export without them being confiscated? I know they are impossible to tell the difference on so how would anyone know the difference when seen coming through customs or something? Let's say a hobbyist actually figured out how to breed them. Then what are the rules?

The captive bred ones that are being sold are microscopic compared to wild caught. But I’m sure they know the very few companies (maybe just biota) that breed them and leave them alone.

 

[Tony Thompson]

We sold out of the last few batches quickly in the US but have larger batches on the horizon. I expect some Biota Mandarins in the UK before the end of the year.

We have our own supplier and breeder of mandarins in the UK. Pholium UK. Robin Manion.

This is despite Biota forming a virtual monopoly with Tropical Marine centre for import of Biota Fish into the UK.

I informed Biota previously that Tropical Marine Centre store their captive bred fish in the same system as their wild collected fish.

Despite Brian Scaff CEO of tropical marine centre stating in a video that the opposite was true, but I can assure you that at that point in time the CB fish where still stored in the same system as Wild Collected, If you watch the video where he makes the statement, there are CB fish in tanks connected to wild collected in the video. I had an account with them at Manchester Facility and the CB fish where never held in separate systems, this was also confirmed to me by the fish house manager.

I would have to Quarantine all my Biota Fish for 8 weeks same as my wild collected.

In that case of buying through a wholesaler such as TMC, free from disease and parasites does not stand up. They have no biosecurity between Wild Collected and CB. If any medications are used in the system the fragile CB fish will also be exposed.

This was the reason myself and other Fish Store Owners attempted to import ourselves direct from BIOTA, however TMC informed me that Biota had stopped all imports except to TMC. I seen the message myself from BIOTA.

This is also true of ORA, Paraquatix, sole importer agreements with TMC.

I personally imported all my CB livestock from De Jong Marinelife but since Brexit that is now not available. TMC have a virtual monopoly due to sole importer agreements.

 

[BZOFIQ]

We have our own supplier and breeder of mandarins in the UK. Pholium UK. Robin Manion.

This is despite Biota forming a virtual monopoly with Tropical Marine centre for import of Biota Fish into the UK.

I informed Biota previously that Tropical Marine Centre store their captive bred fish in the same system as their wild collected fish.

Despite Brian Scaff CEO of tropical marine centre stating in a video that the opposite was true, but I can assure you that at that point in time the CB fish where still stored in the same system as Wild Collected, If you watch the video where he makes the statement, there are CB fish in tanks connected to wild collected in the video. I had an account with them at Manchester Facility and the CB fish where never held in separate systems, this was also confirmed to me by the fish house manager.

I would have to Quarantine all my Biota Fish for 8 weeks same as my wild collected.

In that case of buying through a wholesaler such as TMC, free from disease and parasites does not stand up. They have no biosecurity between Wild Collected and CB. If any medications are used in the system the fragile CB fish will also be exposed.

This was the reason myself and other Fish Store Owners attempted to import ourselves direct from BIOTA, however TMC informed me that Biota had stopped all imports except to TMC. I seen the message myself from BIOTA.

This is also true of ORA, Paraquatix, sole importer agreements with TMC.

I personally imported all my CB livestock from De Jong Marinelife but since Brexit that is now not available. TMC have a virtual monopoly due to sole importer agreements.

This ensures that prices are kept fair...........................................ly high.

 

[jda]

Is it true that permits were issued? Anybody on the ground confirm this?

 

[Tony Thompson]

This ensures that prices are kept fair...........................................ly high.

This was the argument at the heart of the matter.

As a group of LFS owners we wished to increase the accessibility to captive bred specimens in the UK. We also wished to continue to support those companies investment in aquaculture.

The model was simple. Industry norms work on margins. As an example if you buy a fish for £10 you use the margin 50%, so you sell at £20 (50% profit £10).

Now the initial cost of captive bred species is generally much higher, therefore say you buy the same species that was £10 wild collected that is now £20 aqua cultured then the same margin applied is you sell at £40 (50% profit £20)

The principle we had as a collective was to pay the aquaculture wholesaler the same amount £20 but we apply the profit value rather than the margin. So we buy for £20 and sell for £30, we still make the same profit we would for a wild collected (£10) but at the same time cover the extra costs incurred by the breeders.

This caused an outcry from some others in the retail trade and many complained to Tropical Marine Centre, those accounts with TMC where put under pressure to cease this pricing concept. at the same time the only other alternative importer was not allowed from importing from BIOTA and sole supplier set up between Biota and TMC.

 

[litsoh]

Is it true that permits were issued? Anybody on the ground confirm this?

Fate of West Hawaii commericIal aquarium fishing hangs on state High Court judgment - West Hawaii Today

Oral arguments over the fate of commercial aquarium fishing in West Hawaii waters will be heard by the Hawaii Supreme Court on Dec. 5.

www.westhawaiitoday.com

This is what I found when I tried searching it up.

 

[Tony Thompson]

This is the latest information I have. Dated November 9th 2023

State of Hawai‘i DEPARTMENT OF LAND AND NATURAL RESOURCES Division of Aquatic Resources Honolulu,
Hawai‘i 96813
November 9, 2023
Board of Land and Natural Resources State of Hawai‘i Honolulu, Hawai‘i



PETETITION

On October 19, 2023, Kalanihale, KUPA Friends of Ho‘okena Beach Park, Moana‘Ohana, Ko‘olaupoko Hawaiian Civic Club, and For the Fishes (Petitioners) submitted a petition to the Board of Land and Natural Resources (Board) seeking initiation of rulemaking to prohibit the take of marine life for commercial aquarium purposes(attached as Exhibit 1).



RECOMMENDATION:.

1 “That the Board deny “Kalanihale’s, KUPA Friends of Ho‘okena Beach Park’s,Moana ‘Ohana’s, Ko‘olaupoko Hawaiian Civic Club’s, and For the Fishes’ Petition for Rulemaking to Prohibit the Take of Marine Life for Commercial Aquarium Purposes” filed October 19, 2023; and

2. That the Board delegate to the Chairperson the authority to issue any additional documents necessary to comply with the requirements of section 13-1-26(c),Hawaii Administrative Rules.




DENIAL

In general, given the time it takes to complete internal agency drafting and review of rulemaking proposals, it is unlikely that any proposed new rules received by petition would be ready for approval by the Board for public hearing within thirty days of receipt. In the case of the Petition before the Board, the proposed rules have not yet been reviewed and approved by the Department of the Attorney General. Thus, denial on a procedural basis is necessary



ADDITIONAL CONSIDERATIONS

For rules affecting fishing practices, the Division of Aquatic Resources (DAR) typically holds pre-chapter 91 scoping meetings with affected stakeholders to solicit feedback and input on the proposed rules. This early stakeholder engagement is helpful in identifying potential issues, such as ambiguous language or unintended impacts of the proposed rules, and increases efficiency of the rulemaking process overall. Here, no scoping meetings have been conducted. If the Board is interested in considering a rule to prohibit commercial aquarium collection as contemplated by the Petition, the Board may instead consider directing DAR to initiate scoping meetings for this purpose. However, DAR believes that allocation of additional time and resources to rulemaking to prohibit commercial aquarium harvest is currently unnecessary. First, there is currently no commercial aquarium harvest occurring, nor could it occur unless authorized by the Board. Second, DAR is in the process of developing a detailed aquarium fishery management framework (Framework) that would provide the Board with guidance in considering limited commercial aquarium harvest through the future issuance of aquarium collection permits in geographic location(s) where HRS chapter 343 review is complete. When finished, DAR will provide a briefing to the Board to present the Framework and answer questions.

I have attached the complete court record below