HELP BREAK THIS DOWN

[hexcolor reef]

The most basic requirement for the precipitation of calcium carbonate (CaCO3) minerals, calcite, and aragonite is that the product of the concentrations of calcium [Ca2+] and carbonate ions [CO3 2−] exceeds the solubility product of calcite (Equation 1) and aragonite, respectively.

[Ca2+][CO32−]>10−8.35
(1)
The solubility of carbonate minerals depends on the temperature and pressure, decreasing with increasing temperatures and increasing with the increasing pressure. When a solution is in equilibrium with carbon dioxide, [CO3 2−] is determined by pH. In solutions that are undersaturated or not highly saturated, such as modern seawater, the biological activity can strongly control the precipitation of CaCO3....

Aragonite sand/medium is sold at LFS is this product suppose to help with calcium precipitation?

one of my tanks became cloudy after a few hours. Water temp ran above 80F, PH 7.5, calcium 480, ALK 8. I didn't get a chance to check Mag levels. Above quote mentions high temps can cause calcium issues. This tank is in a bedroom. I opened the windows to allow air exchange since carbon dioxide plays a roll in all of this.
can anyone help break the above quote down into laymen's terms if you will.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[Nano_Man]

That went straight over my head my brain doesn’t work like that . Like above says @Randy Holmes-Farley is the man

 

[Dan_P]

The most basic requirement for the precipitation of calcium carbonate (CaCO3) minerals, calcite, and aragonite is that the product of the concentrations of calcium [Ca2+] and carbonate ions [CO3 2−] exceeds the solubility product of calcite (Equation 1) and aragonite, respectively.

[Ca2+][CO32−]>10−8.35
(1)
The solubility of carbonate minerals depends on the temperature and pressure, decreasing with increasing temperatures and increasing with the increasing pressure. When a solution is in equilibrium with carbon dioxide, [CO3 2−] is determined by pH. In solutions that are undersaturated or not highly saturated, such as modern seawater, the biological activity can strongly control the precipitation of CaCO3....

Aragonite sand/medium is sold at LFS is this product suppose to help with calcium precipitation?

one of my tanks became cloudy after a few hours. Water temp ran above 80F, PH 7.5, calcium 480, ALK 8. I didn't get a chance to check Mag levels. Above quote mentions high temps can cause calcium issues. This tank is in a bedroom. I opened the windows to allow air exchange since carbon dioxide plays a roll in all of this.
can anyone help break the above quote down into laymen's terms if you will.

How did you determine cloudiness was calcium carbonate precipitation?

One thing to keep in mind is that calcium carbonate in an aquarium water is over the saturation limit, but the presence of magnesium prevents precipitation of solid calcium carbonate (cloudiness). Slight temperature changes probably won’t cause precipitation, but the hot surface of a heater can become fouled with calcium carbonate. Aragonite sand can be a site of precipitation where the grains become cemented together, but the aragonite alone does not cause the precipitation.

 

[hexcolor reef]

How did you determine cloudiness was calcium carbonate precipitation?

One thing to keep in mind is that calcium carbonate in an aquarium water is over the saturation limit, but the presence of magnesium prevents precipitation of solid calcium carbonate (cloudiness). Slight temperature changes probably won’t cause precipitation, but the hot surface of a heater can become fouled with calcium carbonate. Aragonite sand can be a site of precipitation where the grains become cemented together, but the aragonite alone does not cause the precipitation.

I checked the Mg and it was at 1400. I then rechecked calcium and it shot up from 480 to 680 the following day. I added Mg to create the 3:1 ratio but some reason my Mg levels didn’t budge.

Water still cloudy today but not as bad. I’ll be rechecking water parameters shortly.

Corals are doing great, torch doesn’t fully relax here and there around the edges of flesh but over all it’s flowing pretty nice. I think it’s more so due to lower PH and high temps.

 

[hexcolor reef]

I’m running a AIO system currently on this tank but I’m about to add a sump today so I’m not always inside the display. Plus it’s hard to drip/mix PH balance into display as it doesn’t mix properly even in high flow areas

 

[farfromsea]

The most basic requirement for the precipitation of calcium carbonate (CaCO3) minerals, calcite, and aragonite is that the product of the concentrations of calcium [Ca2+] and carbonate ions [CO3 2−] exceeds the solubility product of calcite (Equation 1) and aragonite, respectively.

[Ca2+][CO32−]>10−8.35
(1)
The solubility of carbonate minerals depends on the temperature and pressure, decreasing with increasing temperatures and increasing with the increasing pressure. When a solution is in equilibrium with carbon dioxide, [CO3 2−] is determined by pH. In solutions that are undersaturated or not highly saturated, such as modern seawater, the biological activity can strongly control the precipitation of CaCO3....

Aragonite sand/medium is sold at LFS is this product suppose to help with calcium precipitation?

one of my tanks became cloudy after a few hours. Water temp ran above 80F, PH 7.5, calcium 480, ALK 8. I didn't get a chance to check Mag levels. Above quote mentions high temps can cause calcium issues. This tank is in a bedroom. I opened the windows to allow air exchange since carbon dioxide plays a roll in all of this.
can anyone help break the above quote down into laymen's terms if you will.

Precipitate means "solid pieces you see floating around or sunk in a liquid."

So like when you make hot chocolate. You poured milk in a cup it is hot. You add the hot chocolate mix and stir. Seems mostly dissolved. Drink it and see a big chunk at the bottom. Didn't add enough milk. Add cold milk. Really taking forever to dissolve. Pop in the microwave. Stir. Finally dissolved.

Basically when you add solids (calcium) to a liquid (tank water) the liquid will only bind so much to the solid (which is why testing and dosage calculators are important--you can't add three hot chocolate packets to one cup of milk and expect it to go well.)

In layman's terms, just like hot chocolate and milk, a certain temperature range is ideal for everything to dissolve. When milk is too cold your hot chocolate takes forever to stir smooth; I suppose the article says when your tank is too hot, the calcium you added in will un-bind from the water and you'll see precipitates (i.e. solid chunks, the cloudiness).

 

[hexcolor reef]

I mixed up some fresh salt water and added it to the sump after hooking it up. water became crystal clear. So what ever the my system was lacking it fixed it up

PH 8.4
Calcium 480
MG. 1600
Nitrates. 5.0
Phosphate .50

Precipitate means "solid pieces you see floating around or sunk in a liquid."

So like when you make hot chocolate. You poured milk in a cup it is hot. You add the hot chocolate mix and stir. Seems mostly dissolved. Drink it and see a big chunk at the bottom. Didn't add enough milk. Add cold milk. Really taking forever to dissolve. Pop in the microwave. Stir. Finally dissolved.

Basically when you add solids (calcium) to a liquid (tank water) the liquid will only bind so much to the solid (which is why testing and dosage calculators are important--you can't add three hot chocolate packets to one cup of milk and expect it to go well.)

In layman's terms, just like hot chocolate and milk, a certain temperature range is ideal for everything to dissolve. When milk is too cold your hot chocolate takes forever to stir smooth; I suppose the article says when your tank is too hot, the calcium you added in will un-bind from the water and you'll see precipitates (i.e. solid chunks, the cloudiness).

 

[hexcolor reef]

I’m back after doing research all night
ALK:
2.5 – 4 meq/L or 7 – 11 dKH or 125 – 200 ppm CaCO3 equivalents

Calcium:

380 – 450 ppm calcium ion or 950 – 1125 ppm CaCO3 equivalents

above is pretty much normal range. But if ALK rises while Calc is dropping or in normal range one could either add more calcium to bring ALK down or allow it to correct itself over time as both are tide to each other

The issue comes when high temps plays a roll. Heat is used to bring calcium + ALK down through precipitation but then we end up with cloudy water.

Seems to me the ions break away from each other which causes this once ions/molecules start to vibrate faster in higher temps vs cooler water temps.

How to achieve all the above without cloudy water is the question? Very interesting. Hope I nailed it

@Randy Holmes-Farley actually covers a portion of this in another forum
Thread 'Reef Chemistry Question of the Day #285: Aragonite vs Calcite'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/r...n-of-the-day-285-aragonite-vs-calcite.971370/

 

[hexcolor reef]

I’m going to try and keep water temps around 75F, try and see if calcium ALK is more absorbed at a lower temp

 

[farfromsea]

I mixed up some fresh salt water and added it to the sump after hooking it up. water became crystal clear. So what ever the my system was lacking it fixed it up

PH 8.4
Calcium 480
MG. 1600
Nitrates. 5.0
Phosphate .50

I'm not sure what your alkalinity is. If it is too low relative to the calcium, then that might be why you see precipitate. I would hesitate to keep a tank lower at 75F for the average stock list but I'm not an expert.

 

[hexcolor reef]

I'm not sure what your alkalinity is. If it is too low relative to the calcium, then that might be why you see precipitate. I would hesitate to keep a tank lower at 75F for the average stock list but I'm not an expert.

ALK was 8, then shot up to 12 when calcium started to precipitate but temp was above 80 when that happened.
Noticed when water is cloudy, ALK is higher. High temps are creating my issue.
ALK shot up to 16 this morning again after high temps, I cooled water temps down and added more calcium to water and it cleared up and it brought ALK back down to 12

 

[farfromsea]

ALK was 8, then shot up to 12 when calcium started to precipitate but temp was above 80 when that happened.
Noticed when water is cloudy, ALK is higher. High temps are creating my issue.
ALK shot up to 16 this morning again after high temps, I cooled water temps down and added more calcium to water and it cleared up and it brought ALK back down to 12

My understanding is calcium precipitation happens when there is too much calcium compared to the available carbonate ion (alk).

I would not expect the alk to be 12 and see precipitation when calcium is less than 500....

Also an alk of 16 is insane. How are you testing alk? Which kit? What steps are you following? Are you using a GH or dKH kit?

 

[hexcolor reef]

My understanding is calcium precipitation happens when there is too much calcium compared to the available carbonate ion (alk).

I would not expect the alk to be 12 and see precipitation when calcium is less than 500....

Also an alk of 16 is insane. How are you testing alk? Which kit? What steps are you following? Are you using a GH or dKH kit?

temperature of water plays a roll with precipitation of calcium.
when I lowered the temp in water, the cloudiness went away. I'm dosing calcium + PH balance OH to keep PH levels stable above 8.0 and even though "PH Balance" is not suppose to change ALK it does. Alk raises through out the day while PH balance is being dosed. Im currently trying to nail in the amount of calcium to dose to control the rise in Alk. It tops out at 16kh. not an issue as I ran tanks with high KH before with no effects on coral.

as I stated im battling with high temps above 80F over night since that is the time I can not drop ice bottles in the sump. Ill be removing my return pump from the water column in the sump and sit it on plastic basket and run it inline, that should solve the problem with temp

im trying to creat that 4:1 ratio and maintain a higher calcium hardness/carbonate alk which in turn I should be able to control PH above 8.0 without dosing

 

[farfromsea]

temperature of water plays a roll with precipitation of calcium.
when I lowered the temp in water, the cloudiness went away. I'm dosing calcium + PH balance OH to keep PH levels stable above 8.0 and even though "PH Balance" is not suppose to change ALK it does. Alk raises through out the day while PH balance is being dosed. Im currently trying to nail in the amount of calcium to dose to control the rise in Alk. It tops out at 16kh. not an issue as I ran tanks with high KH before with no effects on coral.

as I stated im battling with high temps above 80F over night since that is the time I can not drop ice bottles in the sump. Ill be removing my return pump from the water column in the sump and sit it on plastic basket and run it inline, that should solve the problem with temp

im trying to creat that 4:1 ratio and maintain a higher calcium hardness/carbonate alk which in turn I should be able to control PH above 8.0 without dosing

I'm sorry I had misread and didn't realize your temperatures were 80F. Maybe a small fan pointed at the surface of the water can help you until you get a chiller.

However I don't think 80F is enough of an issue to get calcium precipitation. Reading the article they said that the significant increase in calcium precipitation happens at 80C which is 176F or approximately the internal temperature of some well-cooked meats. The difference between 78f and 80f should be relatively insignificant.

I suspect like you said whatever product you are using to increase your pH contains calcium and of course carbonate products.

I prefer to increase pH by dosing alkalinity products instead of buffers.

Maybe a more pure product like Randy's 2 part recipe which uses either sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) or sodium carbonate (baking soda after being dried in the oven for maybe an hour or so) would be better for you. Then there will be more control over amount of calcium you can and should add.

I still don't fully understand the desire to have an alk of 16 dkh but the heart wants what the heart wants and since it worked for you before that is great.

With that being said if you are maintaining high level of carbonate ion in the tank you will need a large amount of calcium to support it and like someone else said, you will need more magnesium because the magnesium will help keep the calcium from precipitating in the water column.