Help, fluconizole didn't work in my refugium!

[csb123]

Great insight! This certainly will change how I approach the devil weed.

 

[prsnlty]

The genus Bryopsidales (bryopsis, derbesia, caulerpa, ulva, codium, halimeda) are algae with a cenocytic cell structure, do not have complete cell division and all algae functions as a single cell. Fluconazole blocks the synthesis of "new ergosterol," but does not remove ergosterol that is already on the cell wall. The alga has to grow (form more wall) so that, in the absence of ergosterol, this "new wall" is fragile and allows the environment to penetrate the cell and disorganize it ... so bryopsis "begins to die" by the growth tips and the disorganization is "top-down" in the filaments, until it becomes complete.

Strong hug

Yes, this is exactly what I observed And once the "New ergosteral " is dead or not allowed to grow, the algae then becomes enticing and edible to the cleanup crew as well.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Yes!
You would be pruning the "sick part" and favoring the recovery of the seaweed, which delays the process.
Strong hug!

Wouldn't removal of the larger algal masses allow more of the medication to be available to the remainder?

 

[prsnlty]

Wouldn't removal of the larger algal masses allow more of the medication to be available to the remainder?

I found that doing that a few days before treating with fluconazole that would be true however not during treatment. Because it is absorbed through the newest tips/growth of the algae. On my experiment I pulled off two sections after treatment they were the last two actually die off even after shaded areas died.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I found that doing that a few days before treating with fluconazole that would be true however not during treatment. Because it is absorbed through the newest tips/growth of the algae. On my experiment I pulled off two sections after treatment they were the last two actually die off even after shaded areas died.

Yes, but once the plant is trimmed , it leaves small tips, the only point of contact with the water, those points should try to grow.
In the first tank i treated , I needed my toothbrush/comfort blankie, and hit the high spots. None of it came back and was by eye bryo free in less then five days. In the second ,larger tank, I only hit a few of the high spots , those didn't come back and the unpruned patches took longer to die.

 

[prsnlty]

Yes, but once the plant is trimmed , it leaves small tips, the only point of contact with the water, those points should try to grow.
In the first tank i treated , I needed my toothbrush/comfort blankie, and hit the high spots. None of it came back and was by eye bryo free in less then five days. In the second ,larger tank, I only hit a few of the high spots , those didn't come back and the unpruned patches took longer to die.

Maybe it has something to do with the species of bryopsis, the lighting (as we do know that well lit areas die more quickly) ... it's hard to say for sure. I'm also thinking that it also depends on your individual tanks chemistry. As we know all tanks are not the same. Some died much faster than others. Yours was gone within 5 days but mine took double that.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Maybe it has something to do with the species of bryopsis, the lighting (as we do know that well lit areas die more quickly) ... it's hard to say for sure. I'm also thinking that it also depends on your individual tanks chemistry. As we know all tanks are not the same. Some died much faster than others. Yours was gone within 5 days but mine took double that.

Thus the very interesting question of , scrub or not to scrub

 

[prsnlty]

Thus the very interesting question of , scrub or not to scrub

LOL for sure! However since we're not sure we could try the easy way, dose the tank and wait and see. If it comes back then we know that that particular tank needs to be scrubbed first then retreated.

 

[Jose Mayo]

Wouldn't removal of the larger algal masses allow more of the medication to be available to the remainder?

The problem is how the medicine has to act to do its job; Fluconazole will only interfere with the new walls that are forming, in the growth shoots, it is from there that the disorganization of the algae begins.

If we cut diseased sprouts, the alga has a chance to "coagulate" its wounds, as if it had been bitten by a tang or snail, and sprout from the roots.

Remaining diseased shoots, as the cenocitic algae do not possess true cell division in their tissues, the imbalance walks from the tips down, and compromises to the roots.

I think the way to speed up the destruction of algae in this particular mode of action of Fluconazole is to accelerate its growth, perhaps with adjustment of the spectrum and PAR of the luminaires, besides the accumulation of nitrate and phosphate by the removal of the cup of the skimmer, which also favors.

Strong hug

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

The problem is how the medicine has to act to do its job; Fluconazole will only interfere with the new walls that are forming, in the growth shoots, it is from there that the disorganization of the algae begins.

If we cut diseased sprouts, the alga has a chance to "coagulate" its wounds, as if it had been bitten by a tang or snail, and sprout from the roots.

Remaining diseased shoots, as the cenocitic algae do not possess true cell division in their tissues, the imbalance walks from the tips down, and compromises to the roots.

I think the way to speed up the destruction of algae in this particular mode of action of Fluconazole is to accelerate its growth, perhaps with adjustment of the spectrum and PAR of the luminaires, besides the accumulation of nitrate and phosphate by the removal of the cup of the skimmer, which also favors.

Strong hug

I do wonder why, when I put this theory into practice, it worked better to scrub it than to leave it.

 

[Jose Mayo]

Somehow, the pathways of production of allelochemicals that defend algae from herbivory, are also compromised by Fluconazole. In fact, when the alga begins to suffer and even before the whitening, the tangs and snails already approach and begin to bite, which they did not before.

Strong hug

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

[CITA = "prsnlty, post: 4208609, member: 17049"] Sim, isso é exatamente o que eu observei : DE uma vez que o "New ergosteral" está morto ou não está autorizado a crescer, as algas então se tornam atraentes e comestíveis para a equipe de limpeza bem. [/ QUOTE]

De alguma forma, os caminhos de produção de alleloquímicos que defendem algas da herbivoria também são comprometidos pelo Fluconazol. Na verdade, quando a alga começa a sofrer e mesmo antes do clareamento, as espigas e os caracóis já se aproximam e começam a morder, o que não antes.

Abraço forte

Makes sense. They do smell rotting food.

 

[Jose Mayo]

I do wonder why, when I put this theory into practice, it worked better to scrub it than to leave it.

I may be wrong, I just suppose that way

 

[prsnlty]

Somehow, the pathways of production of allelochemicals that defend algae from herbivory, are also compromised by Fluconazole. In fact, when the alga begins to suffer and even before the whitening, the tangs and snails already approach and begin to bite, which they did not before.

Strong hug

"I think the way to speed up the destruction of algae in this particular mode of action of Fluconazole is to accelerate its growth, perhaps with adjustment of the spectrum and PAR of the luminaires, besides the accumulation of nitrate and phosphate by the removal of the cup of the skimmer, which also favors."

I found this to be true with my tank. When the lighting is turned up it seems to accelerate the lightening of the algae. The white algae actually dies first and the algae that is more in the shaded locations tend to be last to die or not die completely by the end of the treatment period. We suggested after seeing this happen, that people direct lights towards the algae that's located in poorly lit areas. It works with exterior light as well. I agree that when they begin to turn white the tank inhabitants do consider them desirable to eat and skimmer cup is best left off during treatment

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The problem is how the medicine has to act to do its job; Fluconazole will only interfere with the new walls that are forming, in the growth shoots, it is from there that the disorganization of the algae begins.

If we cut diseased sprouts, the alga has a chance to "coagulate" its wounds, as if it had been bitten by a tang or snail, and sprout from the roots.

Remaining diseased shoots, as the cenocitic algae do not possess true cell division in their tissues, the imbalance walks from the tips down, and compromises to the roots.
g

What evidence is there for that?

 

[Jose Mayo]

What evidence is there for that?

Basically my empirical observations since the first experiments:

- Fluconazole blocks the metabolic route of ergosterol, but this should occur in the internal organelles of the algae (Golgi complex?) And in the walls in formation, not in the already established walls;
- The process of disorganization always begins with the tips (growth shoots?), Not the bases of the algae;
- The intensity (and spectrum) of illumination is related to the growth rate of the algae and, in my observations, the disorganization of the algae is faster in a better lighting condition;
- Fluconazole does not kill the algae directly but exposes it to the action of the external environment by damaging the integrity of its wall.

My hypothesis is that, in growing, the algal wall becomes defective by the action of fluconazole (ergosterol deficiency) and, as the algae is cenocytic (without true cell division), the disorganization and imbalance of the internal environment begins in the growth tips and extends to the entire organism from top to bottom.

 

[Jose Mayo]

The consequences of the action of Fluconazole, for algae cell wall integrity, are, in all likelihood, related to this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2262972/

Best regards

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was more questioning the hypothesis that “death” spreads down the algae strand, and that this is different than cutting a strand . Have you observed it die from the end toward the root? Ever tried cutting a strand to compare?

 

[Jose Mayo]

Yes, I've noticed that it usually starts dying from the tips to the root when fluconazole is working, but not when pruning the algae. I also observed that when pruning algae while using Fluconazole, the process is delayed.

I imagined it to be like gangrene in limbs; if surgery is done the process is interrupted, if not done surgery the process evolves.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks, Jose.