Help me understand 0 nitrate/phos

[Greyhound]

I've had cyano for a few months now and getting very tired of it. Consistently have 0 nitrate/phos with Hanna checker and Nyos test kits. Been dosing NeoNitrate and Microbacter7 daily for the past week to try to raise and it wont budge, so am about to start dosing phos as well. I'm up to 6ml NeoPhos which is higher than what the bottle says for my 32g tank. Do I need to stop skimmer entirely for a while? I've stopped water changes for a while now, have been siphoning cyano weekly, filtering the water through coffee filters, then returning same water to the tank. Is the skimmer just that effective or what am I missing? Also having a hard time understanding the relationship between nitrate and phos, so can someone explain the biochem?

 

[davidm777]

Sorry to hear you struggling. Here my 2 cents for what is worth and hopefully someone can chip in from experience.
Before I had a tank I started doing research and since the beginning I been more focused on the health and function of the system rather than esthetics. That said cyano is a bacterial problem that should be addressed.
I personally do not believe in bottle bacteria (although I heard of is the Deep Cycle but haven't tried it).
I would go old school. Remove some of the rock, get rid of it or reset it (not all of it). I would try to get rock from a good known source or even gamble with little live rock or live sand marine cultured. Personally I would go back to T5, or at least make sure to include full spectrum on the light. Not just for corals but for the micro fauna.
As far as the nutrient question I find it wierd you are bottoming out. You must be doing something that is promoting baterial growth hence the cyano. Would need more information on your system and routine for this. My recommendation, go back to what used to work for you 10 years ago.
As an attempt to answer your question, tanks settles at different numbers, maintain a good routine with quality food at the proper quantities and let the numbers fall where they gonna fall.
Hang in there bro. Don't quit! This shall pass. The 1st year is the hardest. I hope you get better advice than mine. Just don't want to leave you unanswered.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I've had cyano for a few months now and getting very tired of it. Consistently have 0 nitrate/phos with Hanna checker and Nyos test kits. Been dosing NeoNitrate and Microbacter7 daily for the past week to try to raise and it wont budge, so am about to start dosing phos as well. I'm up to 6ml NeoPhos which is higher than what the bottle says for my 32g tank. Do I need to stop skimmer entirely for a while? I've stopped water changes for a while now, have been siphoning cyano weekly, filtering the water through coffee filters, then returning same water to the tank. Is the skimmer just that effective or what am I missing? Also having a hard time understanding the relationship between nitrate and phos, so can someone explain the biochem?

Neonitrate and neophosphate are fairly weak products that are expensive and lack a purity guarantee. When you need to boost N or P, my opinion is that food grades of ammonium bicarbonate, sodium nitrate, sodium phosphate (of various forms), and calcium nitrate are all better bets.

As the to cyano and the current nutrient levels, cyano, being a bacteria, can thrive on organics and may use N and P from the water as it grows. Thus, it may be the cyano that are dragging down N and P.

Short of antibiotics, treatments for cyano often include reduced organics in the water, more flow, and manual removal. While boosting the N and P is good for preventing dinos, it won't readily reduce the cyano. Stopping the skimmer would be counterproductive since it will raise organics.

That all said, are you sure the problem is cyano and not dinos?

 

[Greyhound]

I've had cyano for a few months now and getting very tired of it. Consistently have 0 nitrate/phos with Hanna checker and Nyos test kits. Been dosing NeoNitrate and Microbacter7 daily for the past week to try to raise and it wont budge, so am about to start dosing phos as well. I'm up to 6ml NeoPhos which is higher than what the bottle says for my 32g tank. Do I need to stop skimmer entirely for a while? I've stopped water changes for a while now, have been siphoning cyano weekly, filtering the water through coffee filters, then returning same water to the tank. Is the skimmer just that effective or what am I missing? Also having a hard time understanding the relationship between nitrate and phos, so can someone explain the biochem?

Neonitrate and neophosphate are fairly weak products that are expensive and lack a purity guarantee. When you need to boost N or P, my opinion is that food grades of ammonium bicarbonate, sodium nitrate, sodium phosphate (of various forms), and calcium nitrate are all better bets.

As the to cyano and the current nutrient levels, cyano, being a bacteria, can thrive on organics and may use N and P from the water as it grows. Thus, it may be the cyano that are dragging down N and P.

Short of antibiotics, treatments for cyano often include reduced organics in the water, more flow, and manual removal. While boosting the N and P is good for preventing dinos, it won't readily reduce the cyano. Stopping the skimmer would be counterproductive since it will raise organics.

That all said, are you sure the problem is cyano and not dinos?

Yes, confirmed by microscope, not dinos. I had dinos before the cyano, but have taken multiple samples and only cyano on microscope and a very small number of diatoms. You say stopping the skimmer would be counter-productive, but my nitrate and phos are 0, so it seems nothing is able to outcompete the cyano currently for the minimum available nitrate/phos. I'm also thinking chemiclean may be my next step at this point. I was hoping to avoid but its been ongoing for multiple months now.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Yes, confirmed by microscope, not dinos. I had dinos before the cyano, but have taken multiple samples and only cyano on microscope and a very small number of diatoms. You say stopping the skimmer would be counter-productive, but my nitrate and phos are 0, so it seems nothing is able to outcompete the cyano currently for the minimum available nitrate/phos. I'm also thinking chemiclean may be my next step at this point. I was hoping to avoid but its been ongoing for multiple months now.

Antibiotics such as chemiclean can work. Stopping the skimmer seems a bad plan to me.

If your goal is to boost N and P and not organics, I'd do it by dosing (not feeding more and not stopping the skimmer).

 

[Greyhound]

Sorry to hear you struggling. Here my 2 cents for what is worth and hopefully someone can chip in from experience.
Before I had a tank I started doing research and since the beginning I been more focused on the health and function of the system rather than esthetics. That said cyano is a bacterial problem that should be addressed.
I personally do not believe in bottle bacteria (although I heard of is the Deep Cycle but haven't tried it).
I would go old school. Remove some of the rock, get rid of it or reset it (not all of it). I would try to get rock from a good known source or even gamble with little live rock or live sand marine cultured. Personally I would go back to T5, or at least make sure to include full spectrum on the light. Not just for corals but for the micro fauna.
As far as the nutrient question I find it wierd you are bottoming out. You must be doing something that is promoting baterial growth hence the cyano. Would need more information on your system and routine for this. My recommendation, go back to what used to work for you 10 years ago.
As an attempt to answer your question, tanks settles at different numbers, maintain a good routine with quality food at the proper quantities and let the numbers fall where they gonna fall.
Hang in there bro. Don't quit! This shall pass. The 1st year is the hardest. I hope you get better advice than mine. Just don't want to leave you unanswered.

I started the tank with livecsand (caribsea). What would removing rock do? And I've never had T5, only ever used leds, even 10+ years ago. My corals are thriving with my current ai primes, despite the cyano.

 

[Greyhound]

Yes, confirmed by microscope, not dinos. I had dinos before the cyano, but have taken multiple samples and only cyano on microscope and a very small number of diatoms. You say stopping the skimmer would be counter-productive, but my nitrate and phos are 0, so it seems nothing is able to outcompete the cyano currently for the minimum available nitrate/phos. I'm also thinking chemiclean may be my next step at this point. I was hoping to avoid but its been ongoing for multiple months now.

Antibiotics such as chemiclean can work. Stopping the skimmer seems a bad plan to me.

If your goal is to boost N and P and not organics, I'd do it by dosing (not feeding more and not stopping the skimmer).

Anytime I dose nitrate/phos, the skimmer bubbles way more, so it seems to be removing

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Anytime I dose nitrate/phos, the skimmer bubbles way more, so it seems to be removing

You mean immediately, or hours to days later?

None of the things I recommend dosing for N and P will cause enhanced bubbling immediately in a skimmer.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I started the tank with livecsand (caribsea). What would removing rock do? And I've never had T5, only ever used leds, even 10+ years ago. My corals are thriving with my current ai primes, despite the cyano.

Why are you asking about removing rock? I cannot see a reason to do that, except perhaps to rinse off a rock and return it.

 

[Greyhound]

Anytime I dose nitrate/phos, the skimmer bubbles way more, so it seems to be removing

You mean immediately, or hours to days later?

None of the things I recommend dosing for N and P will cause enhanced bubbling immediately in a skimmer.

I dose microbacter 7, neonitro, and phos all at the same time. I turn off skimmer for 4 hrs per instructions on microbacter7. As soon as I turn back on it bubbles a lot and continues through the next day until I dose again. I've been checking N/P daily and even with increasing doses of N/P it is staying at 0.

 

[Greyhound]

I started the tank with livecsand (caribsea). What would removing rock do? And I've never had T5, only ever used leds, even 10+ years ago. My corals are thriving with my current ai primes, despite the cyano.

Why are you asking about removing rock? I cannot see a reason to do that, except perhaps to rinse off a rock and return it.

The other commenter recommended that and I couldn't see a reason to do that either

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I dose microbacter 7, neonitro, and phos all at the same time. I turn off skimmer for 4 hrs per instructions on microbacter7. As soon as I turn back on it bubbles a lot and continues through the next day until I dose again. I've been checking N/P daily and even with increasing doses of N/P it is staying at 0.

That would be the mb7 that may impact the skimmer.

 

[Greyhound]

I dose microbacter 7, neonitro, and phos all at the same time. I turn off skimmer for 4 hrs per instructions on microbacter7. As soon as I turn back on it bubbles a lot and continues through the next day until I dose again. I've been checking N/P daily and even with increasing doses of N/P it is staying at 0.

That would be the mb7 that may impact the skimmer.

Then wouldnt it make sense to keep the skimmer off longer to allow the good bacteria to tale hold?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Then wouldnt it make sense to keep the skimmer off longer to allow the good bacteria to tale hold?

Maybe. It has pros and cons. I personally use and recommend a different type of bacteria. The nonsulfur purple types. I use microbe lift special blend (smells horrible) and do not turn off my skimmer.

 

[davidm777]

I started the tank with livecsand (caribsea). What would removing rock do? And I've never had T5, only ever used leds, even 10+ years ago. My corals are thriving with my current ai primes, despite the cyano.

I wouldn't consider a caribsea bag on a shelf live sand. I see cyano as a bacterial imbalance and having to promote a diferent biome on your system. New rock is new realstate that can be populated by aerobic bacteria and help out on the renew of your fauna. There are many ways to skin a cat. Randy seems to have a way of reefing that is more in tune with the way you do things.

 

[Greyhound]

I started the tank with livecsand (caribsea). What would removing rock do? And I've never had T5, only ever used leds, even 10+ years ago. My corals are thriving with my current ai primes, despite the cyano.

I wouldn't consider a caribsea bag on a shelf live sand. I see cyano as a bacterial imbalance and having to promote a diferent biome on your system. New rock is new realstate that can be populated by aerobic bacteria and help out on the renew of your fauna. There are many ways to skin a cat. Randy seems to have a way of reefing that is more in tune with the way you do things.

Interesting concept. With how quickly the cyano blankets everything (2-3 days) I'm not sure that would work in this case, but appreciate the idea. I have pods and diatoms as well, so I'm thinking if I kill the cyano with chemiclean I'll have stuff to take its place, and i have plenty of CUC that eats diatoms

 

[VintageReefer]

Chemiclean works great on cyano and I have never had any negative impact from using it. Just follow the instructions. Cyano will be eradicated

 

[Anonymous'Reefer90]

Chemiclean funciona de maravilla con el cianoacrilato y nunca he tenido ningún efecto negativo al usarlo. Simplemente sigue las instrucciones. El cianoacrilato desaparecerá.

Qué What parameters did you have before dosing?, I have green cyano in the sand bed and I have already tried several options I am about to use chemiclean, but I am afraid to fall into dinos, my NP parameters are 15.5 and 0.04

 

[davidm777]

Starting on minute 51 gets interesting regarding Cyano.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Starting on minute 51 gets interesting regarding Cyano.

I agree with some things Dong asserted in the video, and not others.

In particular with respect to dinos, I think it is apparent that some pest dinos are able to thrive at low N and P, whereas its competitors are not. It's not necessary to claim some hidden source of N and P is promoting them, and the fact that brand new dry rock tanks with low N and P are very susceptible to dinos is evidence of this.