Help me understand low phosphates regarding Cyano Bacteria

[Dan_P]

Hi Dan!
When you wrote “chronic infection”, what did you mean? If you got the idea from my post my curious to know
Without any research on the subject, I though the mat building Cyanobacteria were present in most tanks, but only “bloom” and become mats under certain circumstances.

Yes, our last exchange got me thinking.

The chronic infection idea I want to explore is a single species of cyanobacteria that dominates the microbiome. Because it is a dominant member, small changes to an aquarium allow it it overgrow the aquarium. On the other hand, if a cyanobacteria does not dominate the microbiome, it cannot easily bloom. The idea does not resolve the debate of what starts the bloom as much as why does the bloom occur so easily or frequently.

I assume every aquarium has cyanobacteria. I also assume as does @taricha, there is a small number of species that cause all our problems. I was thinking recently, that because the aquarium trade is one big happy family of traders and vendors, the cyanobacteria infection is being passed around quite readily, somewhat like a popular virus is currently doing these days. Maybe the gut microbiome is a better analogy. Disease causing microorganisms can dominate a microbiome and cause illness when the gut microbiome diversity is diminished. The C. difficile infection is a good example.

I would need to obtain a price break from @AquaBiomics to be able to survey enough systems and to run experiments to see if there is any merit in this idea.

 

[flampton]

Yes, our last exchange got me thinking.

The chronic infection idea I want to explore is a single species of cyanobacteria that dominates the microbiome. Because it is a dominant member, small changes to an aquarium allow it it overgrow the aquarium. On the other hand, if a cyanobacteria does not dominate the microbiome, it cannot easily bloom. The idea does not resolve the debate of what starts the bloom as much as why does the bloom occur so easily or frequently.

I assume every aquarium has cyanobacteria. I also assume as does @taricha, there is a small number of species that cause all our problems. I was thinking recently, that because the aquarium trade is one big happy family of traders and vendors, the cyanobacteria infection is being passed around quite readily, somewhat like a popular virus is currently doing these days. Maybe the gut microbiome is a better analogy. Disease causing microorganisms can dominate a microbiome and cause illness when the gut microbiome diversity is diminished. The C. difficile infection is a good example.

I would need to obtain a price break from @AquaBiomics to be able to survey enough systems and to run experiments to see if there is any merit in this idea.

Hey Dan what you're proposing is a very bold experiment indeed. So before you spend any money please consider these points.

1. The possibility that people who don't have mat outbreaks actually have more species of cyanobacterial mat formers. And the competition between species is what prevents mat formation.

2. I don't believe aquabiomics speciates, and even if they did the various strains within the species might give different phenotypes. An example would be the difference between the various strains of E. coli already in your gut and E. coli O157:H7.

3. And glad you brought up C. difficile. The best known treatment for antibiotic resistant Cdif is a fecal transplant from a healthy donor.

So again if it was me I would really start exploring competition in a more easily controlled setting. I think you'll find you will get more answers working from smaller experiment to larger. I mean we don't even know what a truly healthy human gut microbiome is. We have hypotheses that suggest certain population percentages are better than others. But pretty much all of that is genus level recommendations.

 

[Lasse]

that because the aquarium trade is one big happy family of traders and vendors, the cyanobacteria infection is being passed around quite readily, somewhat like a popular virus is currently doing these days.

I do not think it is this way. Set up a total isolated aquaria (from the trade) - I would take poisson on that you will get these organism in that aquarium too - especially in a newly started aquarium. There is a lot of started aquarium these days after the "sterile" dogma. everything should be treated properly in order not to get in any "bad" stuff. There is reports of mat building cyanobacteria in these too.

In the old days when we did not have RODI water for Lab purpose I once forgot a glass bottle of double distilled water in a window for the whole summer. When we look at the bottle in the autumn - we saw a green tint in that bottle. Life found it way so to say.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

There is one thing we miss - IMO - when we talk about competition between different organism and mat forming benthic cyanobacteria. We forget that the mat building benthic cyanobacteria is movable at least in the non mat forming stage. It means that they can move into microenvironment that will favour their demands - newly dead tissue of corals as an example. The observations I have done show a timespan of 1 - 2 days after tissue death and the first signs of small patches of mats. It is also clear that it seems like the mats does a vertical movement during night (as shown in @taricha ´s photo in an earlier post) but I´m not sure if this that seems to be an vertical migration - instead is an consumption of the mats and new forming the next day. I have seen things that can indicate both things.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[flampton]

The above post ignores the fact that newly dead tissue would have very few competitors on it.

So are the heterotrophs chewing on the dead tissue feeding the cyanobacterial mat formers and that's why they're there, or they're there because no competitor was home? Both are plausible.

And the complexity of establishing the exact triggering cause in this situation could not be done without professional experimentation.

 

[flampton]

So I believe I thought of a nice little analogy.

When you die your immune system stops working. Thus all the bugs in your microbiome can start consuming you on both the outside of your body and in your gut.

Are these organisms growing uncontrollably because you suddenly have become more nutritious or is it the fact there is no more immune system (competition)

 

[Lasse]

Exact - your right- because they are movable they do not need to compete with slower growing organism that are attached like microalgae and can´t be competidet out of attached organisms before the microenvironment have changed (ie the organic stuff is away or/and other nutrient things have changed)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[flampton]

Well to be very clear competition does not just include growing space and nutrients it includes predation. The newly dead tissue will have no or very few predators on it. See the above immune system analogy as our innate immune system is a wonderful predator against all who seek access to our bodies.

 

[Lasse]

There seems to be conflicting theories about that

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dan_P]

I do not think it is this way. Set up a total isolated aquaria (from the trade) - I would take poisson on that you will get these organism in that aquarium too - especially in a newly started aquarium. There is a lot of started aquarium these days after the "sterile" dogma. everything should be treated properly in order not to get in any "bad" stuff. There is reports of mat building cyanobacteria in these too.

In the old days when we did not have RODI water for Lab purpose I once forgot a glass bottle of double distilled water in a window for the whole summer. When we look at the bottle in the autumn - we saw a green tint in that bottle. Life found it way so to say.

Sincerely Lasse

The timing of the cyanobacteria films is after stocking the aquarium begins rather than after cycling. Every fish, snail, shrimp, crab and coral plug is a potential carrier. They are also organic waste producers. I bet if we did a Chemiclean wash or quarantine of everything going into an aquarium, there would be no red films. Tough to be aseptic though.

By the way, I haven’t forgotten your data request. Pulling it together tonight.

 

[flampton]

So instead of offering a rebuttal, you went with the semantics game. I'll let others decide what they want to do with that information.

Oh and your RO/DI grew stuff because the glass wasnt clean and the water wasnt sterilized. It's not a mystery at all. So sterilize your water in the future if you don't want things growing in it

 

[flampton]

The timing of the cyanobacteria films is after stocking the aquarium begins rather than after cycling. Every fish, snail, shrimp, crab and coral plug is a potential carrier. They are also organic waste producers. I bet if we did a Chemiclean wash or quarantine of everything going into an aquarium, there would be no red films. Tough to be aseptic though.

By the way, I haven’t forgotten your data request. Pulling it together tonight.

Also geographical location. You're much more likely to get saltwater cyanos in a newly cycled tank living on the coast then living in the mountains.

 

[Dan_P]

Hey Dan what you're proposing is a very bold experiment indeed. So before you spend any money please consider these points.

1. The possibility that people who don't have mat outbreaks actually have more species of cyanobacterial mat formers. And the competition between species is what prevents mat formation.

2. I don't believe aquabiomics speciates, and even if they did the various strains within the species might give different phenotypes. An example would be the difference between the various strains of E. coli already in your gut and E. coli O157:H7.

3. And glad you brought up C. difficile. The best known treatment for antibiotic resistant Cdif is a fecal transplant from a healthy donor.

So again if it was me I would really start exploring competition in a more easily controlled setting. I think you'll find you will get more answers working from smaller experiment to larger. I mean we don't even know what a truly healthy human gut microbiome is. We have hypotheses that suggest certain population percentages are better than others. But pretty much all of that is genus level recommendations.

Great points!

Yes to #1.

Yes to #2. If luck is on my side, genus level might revealing. I am also considering looking for aerobic heterotrophic bacterial partners that enable mat formation. Not sure how this search would go though.

#3. The new age super clean reef setup methodology might be playing a role in diversity issues. Eli of @AquaBiomics shared observations how bacterial diversity varied with methods used to cycle a new system.

 

[taricha]

The chronic infection idea I want to explore is a single species of cyanobacteria that dominates the microbiome. Because it is a dominant member, small changes to an aquarium allow it it overgrow the aquarium. On the other hand, if a cyanobacteria does not dominate the microbiome, it cannot easily bloom. The idea does not resolve the debate of what starts the bloom as much as why does the bloom occur so easily or frequently.

I assume every aquarium has cyanobacteria. I also assume as does @taricha, there is a small number of species that cause all our problems. I was thinking recently, that because the aquarium trade is one big happy family of traders and vendors, the cyanobacteria infection is being passed around quite readily

Over the past couple of months, my aquarium developed a new cyano mat it never has before. It's green! Not the same red junk that's shown up occasionally over the past decade.
I have added zero new imports to my tank in probably a year. No light changes. The most significant change is that closures meant this was the longest period of sparse feeding - food every 3 days on average - in my tank's history.
So I can make a good case that the appearance of a new and distinct mat forming cyano (microscope shows different morphology, not only a color difference) was not the introduction of that species, but a shift in the conditions in the system.

I´m not sure if this that seems to be an vertical migration - instead is an consumption of the mats and new forming the next day. I have seen things that can indicate both things.

I can only reason by analogy with dinos here. Dinos leave their mucus mats in place when making their nightly pilgrimage up or down. Use of UV sometimes clears the brown cells while the lighter mucus remains in place "my dinos turned white"

 

[Lasse]

I can only reason by analogy with dinos here. Dinos leave their mucus mats in place when making their nightly pilgrimage up or down. Use of UV sometimes clears the brown cells while the lighter mucus remains in place "my dinos turned white"

Of cause I I meant "instead it can be..... Yes dinos vertical movements is well known - it could be the same for cyano.

Over the past couple of months, my aquarium developed a new cyano mat it never has before. It's green! Not the same red junk that's shown up occasionally over the past decade.
I have added zero new imports to my tank in probably a year. No light changes. The most significant change is that closures meant this was the longest period of sparse feeding - food every 3 days on average - in my tank's history.
So I can make a good case that the appearance of a new and distinct mat forming cyano (microscope shows different morphology, not only a color difference) was not the introduction of that species, but a shift in the conditions in the system.

I have the same experiences with tanks that not get any new inputs for more than a year, not even WC. Not a trace - and suddenly mat forming benthic cyanobacteria all over

The statement - my bold

In the old days when we did not have RODI water for Lab purpose I once forgot a glass bottle of double distilled water in a window for the whole summer. When we look at the bottle in the autumn - we saw a green tint in that bottle. Life found it way so to say.

The answer

Oh and your RO/DI grew stuff because the glass wasnt clean and the water wasnt sterilized. It's not a mystery at all. So sterilize your water in the future if you don't want things growing in it

I thought that I for a scientist I did not even need to explain what "did not have RODI" means and what double distilled water is.. I also thought that a scientist know how glasswares is handled in a biological lab. Sorry to say - these postulates were proven wrong

The point I wanted to highlight with this example was just that life has so much force and ways to go that in spite of ultra clear water and disinfected glassware some cells and some nutrients "survive" and give result of new biomass

So instead of offering a rebuttal, you went with the semantics game.

To make the difference between the two most important definitions in ecology to be a question of semantic is well down work. From the linked website

In competition, individuals seek to obtain the same environmental resource. In predation, one population is the resource of the other.

Also geographical location. You're much more likely to get saltwater cyanos in a newly cycled tank living on the coast then living in the mountains.

Very interesting observations - do you want to share the data of this or a link where I can read more about this very interesting statement? Because its a statement from you - I assume that it is scientifically proven and want to learn more.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[flampton]

Of cause I I meant "instead it can be..... Yes dinos vertical movements is well known - it could be the same for cyano.



I have the same experiences with tanks that not get any new inputs for more than a year, not even WC. Not a trace - and suddenly mat forming benthic cyanobacteria all over

The statement - my bold

The answer


I thought that I for a scientist I did not even need to explain what "did not have RODI" means and what double distilled water is.. I also thought that a scientist know how glasswares is handled in a biological lab. Sorry to say - these postulates were proven wrong


To make the difference between the two most important definitions in ecology to be a question of semantic is well down work. From the linked website

Very interesting observations - do you want to share the data of this or a link where I can read more about this very interesting statement? Because its a statement from you - I assume that it is scientifically proven and want to learn more.

Sincerely Lasse

Yup I know exactly how glassware is treated in a laboratory. There are many compounds that adsorb to their surface. Did you acid wash them? And even then some compounds do not leave the surface. So are you suggesting that the organisms grew magically?

And this desire for scientifically proven is ridiculous. And so I'm not sure where you're going with this. However it's a well known fact that cyanobacteria are taken into the air.

The importance of cyanobacteria and microalgae present in aerosols to human health and the environment – Review study

Airborne microalgae and cyanobacteria are among the least studied organisms in aerobiology. While those of them living in freshwater and seawater are …

www.sciencedirect.com

Then I used a bit of reasoning and made the leap that there are more saltwater cyanobacteria in the air in coastal regions then mountain regions. However you're correct in that I have no scientific evidence based on saltwater aquariums. So I guess I based my hypothesis on scientific knowledge and reasoning.

Oh and not sure why you're caught up in semantics. I immediately clarified that I included predation in competition.

So I'm sorry reader if you were confused. I made a mistake. I should have said competition and predation.

 

[Lasse]

So I guess I based my hypothesis on scientific knowledge and reasoning.

Yes - and you are allowed to do that - but I´m not.........

Sincerely Lasse

 

[flampton]

Oh and I should mention bacteriophage (bacterial viruses)as well. However because of their size the concentrations in the aquarium are probably not localized. However with localized bursts, the level of hydrophobicity, and charge of the phage coat I can't be 100% sure.

 

[flampton]

Yes - and you are allowed to do that - but I´m not.........

Sincerely Lasse

You're definitely allowed, where did I say that? In fact I told you you should run hypotheses by people and see if they hold water. This is what you refuse to do. And franklyI can't understand this position.

 

[flampton]

And the funniest thing about this thread is that I know you're an experienced aquarist and appreciate your insights in this world as you've been running aquariums for many more years than most.

And so if you had just said that you don't know how nitrate works but has worked for a number of aquarists combatting cyanobacteria mat formers then this thread would have ended days ago.

I truly bear you no ill will at all. In fact I'm pretty positive you're a great person. So I know this thread has come off as that I'm being some angry cantakerous person. Yet everything I have written has come from passion and not anger. Anger clouds the belief system. Never make decisions based on anger.

So I truly hope that you live long and prosper @Lasse

Oh and for those wondering whether I'm appealing to emotion. Well if you have followed this thread you know I try to stay away from logical fallacies. I mean go back and see if I've ever stated my credentials to support my argument.