HELP!! need advice on water paramerters what am I doing wrong?

[Salty_Northerner]

I seriously need help here, i was trying to raise the calcium a week ago and was getting nowhere. The dosing calculator told me to dose X amount of X solution and test later.

I tested and sure enough calcium went up to 420-460 through out the dosing period, then things went south FAST!

I called the LFS (in another Province) and talked to their dosing guy. First thing he asked was, whats the Mag at? I said I don't know and he said, call me when you know and then hung up.
So I ordered Red Sea reef foundation C Magnesium, and test kit to have on hand.

I used the Reef Chemistry Calculator and entered all the info. Turns out I the calcium started to precipitate so I did a partial water change and then it stopped, that was 3 days ago.

Yesterday the Mag additive showed up and used the RC and it said to dose 8.3 fl oz or 245 ml and dos 1/3 to 1/2 and test the next day. I dosed half and checked today and like I said it's not even on the scale when testing so that's why I say its around 700 mag

Here are my parameters:

Water is RO/DI from local trusted shop
Salinity 1.026
Temperature 78.1 constant
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 25 ppm
pH 7.98 morning check. 8.27 after adding Seachem Marine Buffer
Calcium 369
dkH 11.1
Mag, not on the chart so guessing it's <700 ppm using the Red sea Pro kit.

Testing equipment:

Calcium: Hanna checker
dkH: Hanna checker
PH: Apera Instruments PH60 tester
Mag: Red Sea Pro tester
Nitrate: Salifert

Dosing additives
pH: seachem Marine buffer
Calcium: Seachem reef complete
Cal/Alk 2 part: Seachem Fusion 1 and Fusion 2
Mag: Red Sea Reef foundation C

Salt mix was Instant Ocean at start up, then after the tank was cycled I started to use Instant Ocean reef crystals.
The tank is about 10-11 weeks old.
I do a 10% water change weekly using RC.

Sooo.....

It's a modded Fluval 13.5 tank, Upgraded lighting, added Protein skimmer, Siccra 1.0 return pump, RFG upgrade kit, Intank chamber 2 with bio gems, pieces of broken coral on top rack, 3 pieces of filter pad on bottom loosely packed and changed weekly, a small bag of Purigen hanging in chamber 3, Vortech MP10 QD so I have no issues with flow.

What am I doing wrong? what do I need to do now? I don't want to start hammering the additives at the water till I can get some input from you all.

What do you all suggest and what additives do I add, and in what order?

I'm so frustrated and feel like I'm at my wits end chasing the dragon.

I'm at the point of removing all the water and dumping down the drain and just mix up all new water with the Reef Crystals, as I know the values are correct.

Sorry if I'm all over the place here but I'm loosing my mind and really need HELP!

Brad

 

[blaxsun]

I would double check your calcium and magnesium results. With the Fluval Eo 13.5 gallon, simply performing regular water changes will replace most (if not all) of what you need - unless it's literally wall to wall SPS corals.

Skip the SeaChem buffer - this is just a temporary pH boost and won't provide permanent results. Double check the instructions on your Red Sea kit - you may be reading it backwards and the magnesium is actually much higher.

I have a 200-gallon system which has a lot of SPS and LPS corals and I dose maybe (maybe) 1-2ml daily of magnesium.

 

[Snowxcross]

Hi there - I know this can be frustrating, just take your time with this. With that said, i would stop trying solve this by utilizing additives and buffers. Your tank is a nano tank, therefor your last comment about changing all the water would be where i'd start. On the RC bucket you should see what parameters it mixes at, that should be your baseline. Also for being up for 10 weeks, i dont think you have anything in there that's sucking that much Mag. Your Alk is a little high, but that could be due to the buffers being added.

So, first thing be sure to that you're testing the Mag correctly with the RedSea kit. I personally dont like RedSea kits, but they are legit. I use the trident, but once a week test with Hanna to be sure the trident isnt out of whack.

Secondly, ya perform a large water change. Just test once per week, see how your levels do, either up or down. It's a lot about the stability, once you get there it's awesome. We all chase numbers, but just have some patience and dont look for quick fixes. I didnt see you wrote you have any inhabitants, so it's in your favor at this point! Keep us posted!

 

[I never finish anythi]

What's in the tank ? The tank is 12 weeks old? Do you actually need to dose anything at all??

 

[vetteguy53081]

I seriously need help here, i was trying to raise the calcium a week ago and was getting nowhere. The dosing calculator told me to dose X amount of X solution and test later.

I tested and sure enough calcium went up to 420-460 through out the dosing period, then things went south FAST!

I called the LFS (in another Province) and talked to their dosing guy. First thing he asked was, whats the Mag at? I said I don't know and he said, call me when you know and then hung up.
So I ordered Red Sea reef foundation C Magnesium, and test kit to have on hand.

I used the Reef Chemistry Calculator and entered all the info. Turns out I the calcium started to precipitate so I did a partial water change and then it stopped, that was 3 days ago.

Yesterday the Mag additive showed up and used the RC and it said to dose 8.3 fl oz or 245 ml and dos 1/3 to 1/2 and test the next day. I dosed half and checked today and like I said it's not even on the scale when testing so that's why I say its around 700 mag

Here are my parameters:

Water is RO/DI from local trusted shop
Salinity 1.026
Temperature 78.1 constant
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 25 ppm
pH 7.98 morning check. 8.27 after adding Seachem Marine Buffer
Calcium 369
dkH 11.1
Mag, not on the chart so guessing it's <700 ppm using the Red sea Pro kit.

Testing equipment:

Calcium: Hanna checker
dkH: Hanna checker
PH: Apera Instruments PH60 tester
Mag: Red Sea Pro tester
Nitrate: Salifert

Dosing additives
pH: seachem Marine buffer
Calcium: Seachem reef complete
Cal/Alk 2 part: Seachem Fusion 1 and Fusion 2
Mag: Red Sea Reef foundation C

Salt mix was Instant Ocean at start up, then after the tank was cycled I started to use Instant Ocean reef crystals.
The tank is about 10-11 weeks old.
I do a 10% water change weekly using RC.

Sooo.....

It's a modded Fluval 13.5 tank, Upgraded lighting, added Protein skimmer, Siccra 1.0 return pump, RFG upgrade kit, Intank chamber 2 with bio gems, pieces of broken coral on top rack, 3 pieces of filter pad on bottom loosely packed and changed weekly, a small bag of Purigen hanging in chamber 3, Vortech MP10 QD so I have no issues with flow.

What am I doing wrong? what do I need to do now? I don't want to start hammering the additives at the water till I can get some input from you all.

What do you all suggest and what additives do I add, and in what order?

I'm so frustrated and feel like I'm at my wits end chasing the dragon.

I'm at the point of removing all the water and dumping down the drain and just mix up all new water with the Reef Crystals, as I know the values are correct.

Sorry if I'm all over the place here but I'm loosing my mind and really need HELP!

Brad

Adding buffer not recommended and 7.99 is quite normal after lights have been off.
Allow tank to settle as its still fairly new. Chasing targets is the worst thing you can do especially with the tank still maturing. No additives recommended as there no additives needed other than bacteria supplement. You hould be more than cycled and once fish are fed (sparingly up front), you waste will be converted to nitrates and tank will continue to stabilize.

 

[Salty_Northerner]

I would double check your calcium and magnesium results. With the Fluval Eo 13.5 gallon, simply performing regular water changes will replace most (if not all) of what you need - unless it's literally wall to wall SPS corals.

Skip the SeaChem buffer - this is just a temporary pH boost and won't provide permanent results. Double check the instructions on your Red Sea kit - you may be reading it backwards and the magnesium is actually much higher.

I have a 200-gallon system which has a lot of SPS and LPS corals and I dose maybe (maybe) 1-2ml daily of magnesium.

OK while I was waiting to here from you guys I called the LFS in Vancouver that I order from and spoke to their dosing guy. He said 1st off to stop dosing the buffer like you're all saying so check mark that.

I did the dosing totally wrong using the RC and hammered the system with Calcium waaaay to fast and to hard.

With the magnesium so low I screwed that up as well. He said to dose 100 ppm a day.

I screwed up by typing in the values of where the level is at, and the desired level i want. So he said if your showing 700 enter that in and then type in 800 for the desired level and then calculate.. I feel like a dumb butt but it's been 20 yrs and tech has definitely changed.

I'm mixing a 30% batch of new water and going to let is mix till tomorrow and do the swap and as ppl are saying, dont chase the numbers and just go slow, I WILL NOW!! Also ordered the Hanna Phosphorus and high range Nitrate checker.

I'm an older guy and have a wife, she said I needed to do something as a hobby as running up and down the interstate 4 days out of the week to just come home and relax (hard to do) as driving 75 all day just makes me vibrate and work on her nerves

Well I have a 120 tank with all the gear from 20 years ago but the climate here isn't kind on such old out dated equipment. So as we both love the Ocean and her being an Aussi she misses the Ocean and instead of resurrecting the old system I/we opted for a small Nano tank. Now I'm getting off track..

Tank cycled beautifully and avoided the ugly phase, all with 2 really small clowns and a CUC. Then introduced the tiny Orchard dottyback. All levels were fine at first and then I !!WAS GIVEN!! a few frags of SPS and that's when I started to look into the calcium. That's when I started to have issues and went to fast, my own fault. But hey who am I to turn down some free coral

I also introduced pods from Algae Barn, have some GSP, hairy mushroom, a beautiful Kenya tree and some zooa's and pally's. That pretty much sums it up.

I honestly respect you all here and I feel like I totally failed. I think this was a good lesson and a quick lesson learned and have a different perspective on things here. I'll sum this up and will post back in a week and let you all know if it was a win or a bust but I believe it'll be a win!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I seriously need help here, i was trying to raise the calcium a week ago and was getting nowhere. The dosing calculator told me to dose X amount of X solution and test later.

I tested and sure enough calcium went up to 420-460 through out the dosing period, then things went south FAST!

I called the LFS (in another Province) and talked to their dosing guy. First thing he asked was, whats the Mag at? I said I don't know and he said, call me when you know and then hung up.
So I ordered Red Sea reef foundation C Magnesium, and test kit to have on hand.

I used the Reef Chemistry Calculator and entered all the info. Turns out I the calcium started to precipitate so I did a partial water change and then it stopped, that was 3 days ago.

Yesterday the Mag additive showed up and used the RC and it said to dose 8.3 fl oz or 245 ml and dos 1/3 to 1/2 and test the next day. I dosed half and checked today and like I said it's not even on the scale when testing so that's why I say its around 700 mag

Here are my parameters:

Water is RO/DI from local trusted shop
Salinity 1.026
Temperature 78.1 constant
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 25 ppm
pH 7.98 morning check. 8.27 after adding Seachem Marine Buffer
Calcium 369
dkH 11.1
Mag, not on the chart so guessing it's <700 ppm using the Red sea Pro kit.

Testing equipment:

Calcium: Hanna checker
dkH: Hanna checker
PH: Apera Instruments PH60 tester
Mag: Red Sea Pro tester
Nitrate: Salifert

Dosing additives
pH: seachem Marine buffer
Calcium: Seachem reef complete
Cal/Alk 2 part: Seachem Fusion 1 and Fusion 2
Mag: Red Sea Reef foundation C

Salt mix was Instant Ocean at start up, then after the tank was cycled I started to use Instant Ocean reef crystals.
The tank is about 10-11 weeks old.
I do a 10% water change weekly using RC.

Sooo.....

It's a modded Fluval 13.5 tank, Upgraded lighting, added Protein skimmer, Siccra 1.0 return pump, RFG upgrade kit, Intank chamber 2 with bio gems, pieces of broken coral on top rack, 3 pieces of filter pad on bottom loosely packed and changed weekly, a small bag of Purigen hanging in chamber 3, Vortech MP10 QD so I have no issues with flow.

What am I doing wrong? what do I need to do now? I don't want to start hammering the additives at the water till I can get some input from you all.

What do you all suggest and what additives do I add, and in what order?

I'm so frustrated and feel like I'm at my wits end chasing the dragon.

I'm at the point of removing all the water and dumping down the drain and just mix up all new water with the Reef Crystals, as I know the values are correct.

Sorry if I'm all over the place here but I'm loosing my mind and really need HELP!

Brad

IMO, there is unduly excessive focus on magnesium every time anyone has an alk or calcium issues. In reality I think it is rarely a cause of issues just because it is rarely low enough to do so.

In this case, 700 ppm magnesium is testing error.

DO NOT PROCEEED to add 600+ ppm of magnesium.

I'd also say to stop getting advice from that LFS.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Let's back up, forget anything that LFS said, and try to determine what your situation is right now.

Alkalinity is currently what? Measured how?

Calcium is currently what, and measured how?

 

[HappyOne]

I use the Red Sea Magnesium test kit and I can see where the errors might come from. You pull a full ml of the last reagent but the test kit won't use more than 0.8 ml of it at the max and you read the chart for the magnesium level based on how much of the reagent is left in the syringe once the colour has turned to blue so you need to take into account the 'extra' 0.2 ml that will still be in the syringe. If you have 0.3ml left once the colour turns blue, you should be reading the magnesium level off the chart for 0.1ml left.

Hope that makes sense. It ios different than their calcium test which potentially iuse the entire syringe of reagent in the calculation.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I use the Red Sea Magnesium test kit and I can see where the errors might come from. You pull a full ml of the last reagent but the test kit won't use more than 0.8 ml of it at the max and you read the chart for the magnesium level based on how much of the reagent is left in the syringe once the colour has turned to blue so you need to take into account the 'extra' 0.2 ml that will still be in the syringe. If you have 0.3ml left once the colour turns blue, you should be reading the magnesium level off the chart for 0.1ml left.

Hope that makes sense. It ios different than their calcium test which potentially iuse the entire syringe of reagent in the calculation.

If I take what you have written exactly literally, it is not correct. Perhaps you are using the syringe correctly and just aren't clear about it, but I suspect you may be using the syringe wrong.

The Red Sea magnesium kit does seem to be more likely to be inaccurate than some others (based on the number of folks having problems with it).

Red Sea does give correct directions for how to use the syringe in the directions for their Red Sea Pro magnesium kit:

Note for filling the 1ml titration syringe: Raise the plunger of the syringe until the bottom ring of the plunger (see arrow in diagram) is at the 1.0 ml mark. The surface of the liquid will be approximately 0.1 – 0.15 ml below the plunger. Do not try to remove the air trapped between the liquid and the plunger. This small volume of air corresponds to the liquid held inside the plastic tip.]

The important point is that one ALWAYS follows the movement of the end of the plunger, not ever the liquid level. And drawing the plunger back to 1 mL and them pushing it to zero WILL dispense 1 full mL of the liquid.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

We discuss how to properly use any syringe here:

Reef Chemistry Question of the Day #161 Using a Syringe

Reef Chemistry Question of the Day #160 I have just drawn tank water into a syringe with a tip (shown below, including a blowup of the barrel). The blue coloration shows where the fluid is. When I started to draw fluid in, the tip and syringe were empty and the plunger was all the way in...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[bpinkstaff]

We discuss how to properly use any syringe here:

Reef Chemistry Question of the Day #161 Using a Syringe

Reef Chemistry Question of the Day #160 I have just drawn tank water into a syringe with a tip (shown below, including a blowup of the barrel). The blue coloration shows where the fluid is. When I started to draw fluid in, the tip and syringe were empty and the plunger was all the way in...

www.reef2reef.com

Have to agree LFs not the go to apparently! Also tank is young and those parameters that far out of range seems like a testing error! Slow it down and watch the advisement boards of Reef to reef. By doing so you can avoid knee jerk reactions and the frustration. Personally before i tweak anything i review articles on this site most answers are here if you look for them and if not you did the right thing by asking people here want you to be successful!

 

[HappyOne]

If I take what you have written exactly literally, it is not correct. Perhaps you are using the syringe correctly and just aren't clear about it, but I suspect you may be using the syringe wrong.

The Red Sea magnesium kit does seem to be more likely to be inaccurate than some others (based on the number of folks having problems with it).

Red Sea does give correct directions for how to use the syringe in the directions for their Red Sea Pro magnesium kit:

Note for filling the 1ml titration syringe: Raise the plunger of the syringe until the bottom ring of the plunger (see arrow in diagram) is at the 1.0 ml mark. The surface of the liquid will be approximately 0.1 – 0.15 ml below the plunger. Do not try to remove the air trapped between the liquid and the plunger. This small volume of air corresponds to the liquid held inside the plastic tip.]

The important point is that one ALWAYS follows the movement of the end of the plunger, not ever the liquid level. And drawing the plunger back to 1 mL and them pushing it to zero WILL dispense 1 full mL of the liquid.

Thanks but I wasn't referencing that portion of filling the syringe. You do that the same for each of the pro kits but how much you potentially use of it varys depending on the specific test. For the calcium one, you could use the entire syringe but for the magnesium one, it maxes out at 0.8ml.

Many folks would read how much was left, subtract that from the 1ml they started with and then read the level off the included chart. That works fine for the calcium test but not the magnesium one.

Add the first 0.4 ml of titrant (equivalent to 800ppm of magnesium) by pressing the plunger of the syringe while gently swirling the Titrator. Continue adding the titrant gradually, swirling the Titrator after each addition and paying attention to the color in the vial. As the color in the vial approaches the end color as shown on the instruction card, add one drop at a time, swirling after each drop, until the blue end color is first achieved. Note: Shortly after the blue end color is achieved the liquid in the vial will turn from blue to violet. Do not continue adding titrant. If you have used more than 0.8ml of titrant you may have missed the end point and should redo the test.Note the amount of titrant used (according to the initial and final position of the plunger not the liquid surface) and use the table on the instruction card to calculate the level of magnesium in the water sample.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks but I wasn't referencing that portion of filling the syringe. You do that the same for each of the pro kits but how much you potentially use of it varys depending on the specific test. For the calcium one, you could use the entire syringe but for the magnesium one, it maxes out at 0.8ml.

Many folks would read how much was left, subtract that from the 1ml they started with and then read the level off the included chart. That works fine for the calcium test but not the magnesium one.

Add the first 0.4 ml of titrant (equivalent to 800ppm of magnesium) by pressing the plunger of the syringe while gently swirling the Titrator. Continue adding the titrant gradually, swirling the Titrator after each addition and paying attention to the color in the vial. As the color in the vial approaches the end color as shown on the instruction card, add one drop at a time, swirling after each drop, until the blue end color is first achieved. Note: Shortly after the blue end color is achieved the liquid in the vial will turn from blue to violet. Do not continue adding titrant. If you have used more than 0.8ml of titrant you may have missed the end point and should redo the test.Note the amount of titrant used (according to the initial and final position of the plunger not the liquid surface) and use the table on the instruction card to calculate the level of magnesium in the water sample.

That is just a comment that they do not believe magnesium will be that high (1600 ppm). It's not any indication that the 0.8 mL mark has any special significance, nor does the liquid level factor into any calculations. It's only the plunger position that matters.

You may well perfectly understand this, I just do not get it from what you wrote.

This statement, for example, seems fairly misleading/confusing:

" If you have 0.3ml left once the colour turns blue, you should be reading the magnesium level off the chart for 0.1ml left."

If the plunger end is at 0.3 mL, you use that value, not the level that the liquid is at or any subtracted value.

You could get there is some round about fashion by looking at the liquid level and adding the tip volume to it, but that is unnecessarily complicated and assumes you know the tip volume accurately.

 

[HappyOne]

Let's try it this way...

When you fill the syringe up as instructed, the black rubber stopper would be inline with the 1ml measure at the top of the syringe, (the included one only shows measures going that high).

As you push down on the syringe to add the fluid, the plunger moves towards the tip of the syringe. If the colour change happens after adding 0.68ml, the rubber stopper portion would now be next to the 0.32ml marking. To figure out how much you added, you would look at the reading you stopped at and then subtract that from the starting reading/volume of 1ml. The syringe measures how much fluid remains in the syringe - not how much you used.

For the calcium test you could use the entire 1ml. I think that indicates 500+ ppm.

For the magnesium test, a full range of the test only uses 0.8ml so when you subtract what is left to get what was used, you have to calculate it from 0.8ml not 1ml.

I beleive they instruct to fill the syringe to 1ml so that it is consistent between all the pro tests. Does that make sense?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Let's try it this way...

When you fill the syringe up as instructed, the black rubber stopper would be inline with the 1ml measure at the top of the syringe, (the included one only shows measures going that high).

As you push down on the syringe to add the fluid, the plunger moves towards the tip of the syringe. If the colour change happens after adding 0.68ml, the rubber stopper portion would now be next to the 0.32ml marking. To figure out how much you added, you would look at the reading you stopped at and then subtract that from the starting reading/volume of 1ml. The syringe measures how much fluid remains in the syringe - not how much you used.

For the calcium test you could use the entire 1ml. I think that indicates 500+ ppm.

For the magnesium test, a full range of the test only uses 0.8ml so when you subtract what is left to get what was used, you have to calculate it from 0.8ml not 1ml.

I beleive they instruct to fill the syringe to 1ml so that it is consistent between all the pro tests. Does that make sense?

Yes, I agree with that clarification.
What confused me was your statement relating to fluid level.

"so you need to take into account the 'extra' 0.2 ml that will still be in the syringe. If you have 0.3ml left once the colour turns blue, you should be reading the magnesium level off the chart for 0.1ml left."

Short answer to that issue is "always ignore the observed fluid level in a syringe. Only look at the movement of the plunger. Fluid added always equal to the difference between the starting point of the plunger end and the finishing point of the plunger end, no matter where it starts or finishes".

However, I would add that folks can have magnesium above 1600 ppm. There's nothing magic about that 0.8 ml comment they made. One could say the same thing about some value for calcium. Or pick 1650 ppm or 1700 ppm. It's just a cautionary statement. It's not a true limit to the test kit.

 

[HappyOne]

Here is the test card from the test.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here is the test card from the test.

Thanks, but I'm not sure why you are showing it.

 

[Badboyan93l]

I use Salifer Mag test kit for years. I think it's easy to use. Try it and see what level your mag is and then use the calculator to adjust mag accordingly...

 

[Salty_Northerner]

Ok maybe I'm reading it wrong. This is the red Sea pro magnesium test kit. All attached this photo and maybe somebody can tell me if I'm reading it wrong. What is the magnesium at by looking at the photo?