Help please... Stuck in an unbreakable cycle.

[i_am_mclovin]

This whole thread makes me sad... from a tank that is not being enjoyed to the absolute ridiculous advice to one reefer who does not practice what they preach and works off the backs of others with no experience calling out another for allegedly the same thing.

@Gobi-Wan, there are ways out of this, but they do not have any quick solutions, no magic tricks and will take some work. There are plenty of us who can help with this, but we don't subscribe to the internet mob approach to running a tank and deal with things which are usually short lived. I practice what I preach in my own home and have results to show for it... for decades. If you would like to change your paradigm to developing a tank where nature and equilibrium take over, then let me know. Anything that you do to interrupt this usually needs repaid 10x in kind the other direction.

In any case, good luck, and I strongly suggest that you start to pay attention to those that do instead of those that just post. Always works. Always has.

Well said.

 

[Gobi-Wan]

Well everything seems to be stable still, the only ongoing issue is the Dino’s. My phosphate has been right at .08-.09 for at least 3 weeks now which is the first time I’ve ever been able to balance my filtration with input. Though I probably need to back off the filtration now so I can do water changes. I have been siphoning the sandbed into a filter sock almost every day lately which keeps the Dino’s down to a thin layer. Hoping over time with nutrients stable they will die out and whatever out-competes them normally will fill in.

 

[Gobi-Wan]

Here is a pick right after the big rip clean, and one today to show how much my corals have colored up since getting my nutrients stable. I guess all you can really see is the monti.

 

[Harold999]

I haven't seen you mentioning your nitrates, only phosphates.
Do you keep your nitrates at 10-20?
Nitrates 10-20 and phosphates >0 should be the end of dinos eventually.

 

[Jubo]

Newb here, didn't read the whole thread but thought this video might offer some insight:



Watch from 7:50 on...covers cyano first and then goes into Dinos, if it's Dino you have three options, add UV, blackout, or add a bacteria like Dr Tim's to outcompete.

Hope this helps!

 

[markwayts]

It's more than algae just being a nutrient sink. It varies significantly by species but algae is dumping hydrophilic and hydrophobic DOC into the water that promotes pathogenic shifts in coral holobionts/microbiomes. Skimmers and GAC won't remove the hydrophilic DOC (specifically the Dissolved Combined Neutral Sugars, DSCN). Sponges will process DOC (and the hydrophobic as well, 1000X faster than the bacterioplankton in ht ewater) but they process DOC from algae differently than from corals and with too much nuisance algae a negative feedback loop helps the algae but hurts the coral. Stripping the nutrients out of the water also makes it harder for corals to compete against the algae so corals are getting a hit on two fronts.

DOn't feel like you need to pull out all the rock. I'd actually try to disturb the system as little as possible. Remeber the sponges are helpful and the rock that doesn't have a lot of algae might only need a little brishing. If a rock sin't integral to the aquascaping and doesn't have any sponges on the back side and no corals of value on the lighted side and lots of hair algae I may just set it outside and let it dry out. In the first thread roughly a third of the rock was removed fromn the tank and scrubbed off in aquarium water and only a couple of the worst pieces were removed a 2nd and third time to be scrubbed in aquarium water. In the 2nd thread since it was so tall and seriously needed rescaping (the previous maintenence company just pilled the rock in) over half was removed and maybe about a fifth wasn't put back in.


To help understand the roles of corals and algae and microbial processes in reef systems I'd encourage you get the book and watch the accompanying video "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10) Both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems


Here's some other videos you may find informative:

Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)


Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching


Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"


And here's some additional links:

Phosphate Deficiency:
Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching:

Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching - Nature Climate Change

Increased dissolved inorganic nitrogen (DIN) concentrations in sea water have been linked to a reduction of the temperature threshold at which corals bleach, however, the mechanism underlying this change is not known. This phenomenon is now explained in terms of increased phosphatase activities...

www.nature.com

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont:

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont

Reef building corals associated with symbiotic algae (zooxanthellae) can access environmental nutrients from different sources, most significantly via the uptake of dissolved inorganic nutrients by the algal symbiont and heterotrophic feeding of the coral host. Climate change is expected to...

www.frontiersin.org

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Enrichment of reef environments with dissolved inorganic nutrients is considered a major threat to the survival of corals living in symbiosis with din…

www.sciencedirect.com

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

Phosphate contamination can negatively affect corals, modifying growth rates, skeletal density, reproduction, mortality, and zooxanthellae. We determi…

www.sciencedirect.com

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

SUMMARYSeveral untested aspects of the regulation of inorganic nutrient uptake were examined using nutrient depletion experiments with the symbiotic coral Stylophora pistillata. The total inhibition of phosphate uptake in artificial seawater lacking sodium indicates the involvement of a...

jeb.biologists.org

Phosphorus metabolism of reef organisms with algal symbionts

https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ecm.1217?casa_token=ziDzrEEJ8g0AAAAA%3AHnfuGTIntMdqOtx2ij-lnoTh7qVg8VBhYFz98e60zfBEvx5IcIVGhmlpUYmzIJuqUNVm0sG8_0vth6lq

2657円まるいち 博多辛子明太子(無着色) 「博多の華」 (ギフト用) 180g Z6572海産物イクラ,タラコ,魚卵 Qoo10]　「博　まるいち　博多辛子明太子(無着色) | therichross.com

2657円まるいち 博多辛子明太子(無着色) 「博多の華」 (ギフト用) 180g Z6572海産物イクラ,タラコ,魚卵 Qoo10]　「博　まるいち　博多辛子明太子(無着色) | therichross.com

therichross.com

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Marine sponges are ubiquitous colonizers of shallow, clear-water environments in the oceans (1, 2). Sponges have emerged as significant mediators of biogeochemical fluxes in coastal zones by virtue of respiring organic matter and facilitating both the consumption and release of nutrients (3, 4)...

www.pnas.org

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Coral reefs are highly productive ecosystems that raise a conundrum called “Darwin’s paradox”: How can high production flourish in low-nutrient conditions? We show here that in three abundant Caribbean sponges, the granules that have been commonly observed in sponge tissue for decades are...

www.pnas.org

Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism

Benthic primary producers in tropical reef ecosystems can alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in the surrounding seawater. In order to quantify these influences, we measured rates of photosynthesis, respiration, and dissolved organic carbon (DOC) exudate release by the dominant...

peerj.com

Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2006/314/m314p119.pdf

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity

Benthic primary producers in marine ecosystems may significantly alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in their surrounding environment. To examine these interactions, we studied dissolved organic matter release by dominant benthic taxa and subsequent microbial remineralization in...

journals.plos.org

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
Starch and sugars (doc) caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2005/294/m294p173.pdf

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Planar optodes were used to visualize oxygen distribution patterns associated with a coral reef associated green algae (Chaetomorpha sp.) and a hermatypic coral (Favia sp.) separately, as standalone organisms, and placed in close proximity mimicking coral-algal interactions. Oxygen patterns were...

peerj.com

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates
Exposure to exudates derived from turf algae stimulated higher oxygen drawdown by the coral-associated bacteria.

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates

Algae-derived dissolved organic matter has been hypothesized to induce mortality of reef building corals. One proposed killing mechanism is a zone of hypoxia created by rapidly growing microbes. To investigate this hypothesis, biological oxygen demand ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Human pressures on coral reefs are giving macroalgae a competitive advantage over reef-building corals. These algae support larger, and potentially pathogenic, microbial populations that are metabolically primed for less-efficient, yet faster, carbohydrate remineralization, perpetuating a...

www.nature.com

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages - PubMed

Increasing algal cover on tropical reefs worldwide may be maintained through feedbacks whereby algae outcompete coral by altering microbial activity. We hypothesized that algae and coral release compositionally distinct exudates that differentially alter bacterioplankton growth and community...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton - The ISME Journal

Coastal pollution and algal cover are increasing on many coral reefs, resulting in higher dissolved organic carbon (DOC) concentrations. High DOC concentrations strongly affect microbial activity in reef waters and select for copiotrophic, often potentially virulent microbial populations. High...

www.nature.com

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs - PubMed

Recent work has shown that hydrophilic and hydrophobic organic matter (OM) from algae disrupts the function of the coral holobiont and promotes the invasion of opportunistic pathogens, leading to coral morbidity and mortality. Here we refer to these dynamics as the (3)DAM [dissolved organic...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides - PubMed

With the continued and unprecedented decline of coral reefs worldwide, evaluating the factors that contribute to coral demise is of critical importance. As coral cover declines, macroalgae are becoming more common on tropical reefs. Interactions between these macroalgae and corals may alter the...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals - PubMed

Benthic macroalgae can be abundant on present-day coral reefs, especially where rates of herbivory are low and/or dissolved nutrients are high. This study investigated the impact of macroalgal extracts on both coral-associated bacterial assemblages and sublethal stress response of corals. Crude...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.

https://elifesciences.org/articles/49114.pdf

Global microbialization of coral reefs

Global microbialization of coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Analysis of 60 sites in three ocean basins suggests that overgrowth of fleshy algae on coral reefs supports higher microbial abundances dominated by copiotrophic, potentially pathogenic bacteria via the provision of dissolved inorganic carbon.

www.nature.com

Ecosystem Microbiology of Coral Reefs: Linking Genomic, Metabolomic, and Biogeochemical Dynamics from Animal Symbioses to Reefscape Processes

https://msystems.asm.org/content/msys/3/2/e00162-17.full.pdf

Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals

Error - Cookies Turned Off

besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Wow dude you just gave me a month of toilet reading lol. Thanks

 

[Gobi-Wan]

I haven't seen you mentioning your nitrates, only phosphates.
Do you keep your nitrates at 10-20?
Nitrates 10-20 and phosphates >0 should be the end of dinos eventually.

Yeah the only test I have is a 4 year old API that I don’t really trust. Not sure if the reagent is any good or whether it’s a reliable test to begin with. I use Hanna ULR for phosphate. What would you recommend for nitrate?

 

[Aqua Man]

What would you recommend for nitrate?

Nyos or salifert are good if your eyes are good at judging colors. I use both of these.

 

[Harold999]

Yeah the only test I have is a 4 year old API that I don’t really trust. Not sure if the reagent is any good or whether it’s a reliable test to begin with. I use Hanna ULR for phosphate. What would you recommend for nitrate?

Salifert is a decent one, but most will work. It's not important that you exactly need to know if you have 8 or 13 ppm nitrates. You need to know if it's not zero. Around 10-20 is good when battling dinos. So you only need a ballpark measurement.
The same story for phosphates, not zero.

 

[CK00020]

The high range Hanna nitrate tester works nice as well, I have salifert and nyos and don’t use them often.

 

[Gobi-Wan]

I haven't seen you mentioning your nitrates, only phosphates.
Do you keep your nitrates at 10-20?
Nitrates 10-20 and phosphates >0 should be the end of dinos eventually.

 

[Harold999]

Nice. Personally i would like to see it a bit less (20 is my max), so time for a waterchange.

 

[Cbones1979]

Tank looks good !!!

Does your method work for amphidium dino? Sand Dino’s I believe. I’ve won’t work and h2o2 is said not to work.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Does your method work for amphidium dino? Sand Dino’s I believe. I’ve won’t work and h2o2 is said not to work.

Yes, amphi and Ostreo

 

[Cbones1979]

Yes, amphi and Ostreo

I think I used it before. Is it dirty tank? Uv?

 

[vetteguy53081]

I think I used it before. Is it dirty tank? Uv?

If followed precisely does work.
Blackout and UV does help immensely. In many cases, when we see zero readings, automatically we assume this is the cause but by the time you see zero numbers, its because the dino has consumed the po4 and no3 and are multiplying and in turn many dose no3 and po4 to bring numbers up not realizing they are feeding these flagellates even more.
It's biological deficiencies that are causing the dino structure.
Nothing is 100% but its worked for many and many have their own methods of erradication which makes the hobby challenging at times

 

[Cbones1979]

If followed precisely does work.
Blackout and UV does help immensely. In many cases, when we see zero readings, automatically we assume this is the cause but by the time you see zero numbers, its because the dino has consumed the po4 and no3 and are multiplying and in turn many dose no3 and po4 to bring numbers up not realizing they are feeding these flagellates even more.
It's biological deficiencies that are causing the dino structure.
Nothing is 100% but its worked for many and many have their own methods of erradication which makes the hobby challenging at times

Yeah, I never had bottomed out nutirents and actually have algae growing on rocks currently. Is this h2o2 dose at night and bacteria during the day?