Help with Disease Identification / Treatment

[Gondeep11]

Hello All,

I am in need of trying to figure out what this might be, I've had this Emperor in 2.5 ppm of copper for the past 15 days, I've also put her thru 2 treatments of Prazipro as well as did a week treatment of API general cure.

Originally I thought I had ICK but that is not the case, if you look in the photos and video's, she has some sort of spots or discoloration. This appears to be under the skin but I could be completely off base here. I have her in QT, She is eating and water parameters are fine as I change the water in my 29gal QT every 3 days, Salinity of 1.023

This is not getting any better so I need some advice. I have the following to treat her and just need some recommendations.
I can move her tonight, I have a fresh tank ready to be medicated, before I try another medication I wanted some help.

I just received my shipment of 100% pure chloroquine phosphate, In addition I have Nitrofurazone, Methaline Blue, Ruby Rally Pro, and Formalin....

Last night I did a water change and copper is at 2.40ppm

So any help on treatment please advise #fishmedic , I just don't want to go from one treatment to another to another without some educated help... Photos and Video's HERE

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hello All,

I am in need of trying to figure out what this might be, I've had this Emperor in 2.5 ppm of copper for the past 15 days, I've also put her thru 2 treatments of Prazipro as well as did a week treatment of API general cure.

Originally I thought I had ICK but that is not the case, if you look in the photos and video's, she has some sort of spots or discoloration. This appears to be under the skin but I could be completely off base here. I have her in QT, She is eating and water parameters are fine as I change the water in my 29gal QT every 3 days, Salinity of 1.023

This is not getting any better so I need some advice. I have the following to treat her and just need some recommendations.
I can move her tonight, I have a fresh tank ready to be medicated, before I try another medication I wanted some help.

I just received my shipment of 100% pure chloroquine phosphate, In addition I have Nitrofurazone, Methaline Blue, Ruby Rally Pro, and Formalin....

Last night I did a water change and copper is at 2.40ppm

So any help on treatment please advise #fishmedic , I just don't want to go from one treatment to another to another without some educated help... Photos and Video's HERE

Fish appears to have velvet and the treatments have both stalled the needed remedy as well as being the wrong treatments or protocol. You will need to start over and great to hear you have a sterile tank ready to go. begin with treating with coppersafe or copper Power at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off
Some signs you will notice with velvet are fish will scratch body against hard objects, lethargic behavior, Loss of appetite, cloudy eyes and weight loss, Rapid, labored breathing, Fins clamped against the body, and typically stay at the surface of the water, or remain in a position where a steady flow of water is present in the aquarium.
Coppersafe takes 2-3 days to take full effect. Add aeration with airstone as mentioned

 

[Gondeep11]

Fish appears to have velvet and the treatments have both stalled the needed remedy as well as being the wrong treatments or protocol. You will need to start over and great to hear you have a sterile tank ready to go. begin with treating with coppersafe or copper Power at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off
Some signs you will notice with velvet are fish will scratch body against hard objects, lethargic behavior, Loss of appetite, cloudy eyes and weight loss, Rapid, labored breathing, Fins clamped against the body, and typically stay at the surface of the water, or remain in a position where a steady flow of water is present in the aquarium.
Coppersafe takes 2-3 days to take full effect. Add aeration with airstone as mentioned

Thanks for the quick reply, your always there to help out! The weird part here is the fish is not scratching, flashing or lethargic, she is not swimming in flow, she does have cloudy eyes... I've have her in consistent copper power at 2.40 (hanna checker for 15 days, I guess I will continue the treatment since your not seeing a benefit to another med. I in a million years never thought this was velvet so I'm taken back a bit. This has been one of the most friendly fish I've had and want to do anything I can for her. I just thought the chloroquine phosphate was the wonder drug therefore I ordered to keep on hand along with the formalin, both I have never used...

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for the quick reply, your always there to help out! The weird part here is the fish is not scratching, flashing or lethargic, she is not swimming in flow, she does have cloudy eyes... I've have her in consistent copper power at 2.40 (hanna checker for 15 days, I guess I will continue the treatment since your not seeing a benefit to another med. I in a million years never thought this was velvet so I'm taken back a bit. This has been one of the most friendly fish I've had and want to do anything I can for her. I just thought the chloroquine phosphate was the wonder drug therefore I ordered to keep on hand along with the formalin, both I have never used...

That looks like long term ich to me. I can see distinct spots and the fish is breathing a bit fast, but not as fast as it would if it is velvet. If the fish is still eating, I would rule velvet out completely. There may also be an underlying fluke infection.

What is weird here is that both ich and velvet should be controlled by copper power at that dose for that period of time.

Chloroquine is an option, but it is pretty toxic. Hyposalinity will work against flukes and ich, but will make velvet worse.

Here is my article on chloroquine:

Aquarium Fish: Chloroquine: A “New” Drug for Treating Fish Diseases

While not a panacea or miracle drug, chloroquine is experiencing resurgence in popularity for use in fish-only aquariums and quarantine systems to treat a variety of problems ranging from Cryptocaryon to Aiptasia anemone infestations.

reefs.com

Jay

 

[Gondeep11]

Jay, thanks for the reply, I must have missed your post. Unfortunately, I dipped the fish in 150ppm H202, literally in 30 min the poor things skin started peeling off (I'll look for the video). I put her directly into the new QT with Chloroquine at recommended dose, and lost her within 12 hrs, I assume it was too late and the stress pushed her over the edge. Oddly enough, Here is one I can't figure out.... She was in my DT prior for 2 days and I had to leave on business, so I put her back in QT... Now I have velvet 100% in my DT, oddly this has been over 4 weeks when I saw the first signs, I have been dosing h202 in a 200 gallon reef for at least 6 weeks, 66ml 3x daily and overnight Dosing 9ml every 15 min to bomb any free swimmers at night... I have no Idea how these fish are not all gone, I see some rapid breathing but nothing too concerning, Flashing on occasion, and other than some of my fish looking like powdered sugar, all have incredible appetites. I am in the process of setting up a 300 gal on a temp basis and will pull all fish and let this tank go fallow for 72+ days, I just can't figure out how I have not lost any other fish, I feel like the h202 and uv is doing a great job, but not good enough to start winning the tug of war, we are at a stalemate.... Do you see any issue with me setting up this 300 gallon and doing either the copper or Chloroquine, with that much water volume and 10 small to med size fish I thouhgt I could manage via matched water changes with either CP or Copper... @Jay Hemdal

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay, thanks for the reply, I must have missed your post. Unfortunately, I dipped the fish in 150ppm H202, literally in 30 min the poor things skin started peeling off (I'll look for the video). I put her directly into the new QT with Chloroquine at recommended dose, and lost her within 12 hrs, I assume it was too late and the stress pushed her over the edge. Oddly enough, Here is one I can't figure out.... She was in my DT prior for 2 days and I had to leave on business, so I put her back in QT... Now I have velvet 100% in my DT, oddly this has been over 4 weeks when I saw the first signs, I have been dosing h202 in a 200 gallon reef for at least 6 weeks, 66ml 3x daily and overnight Dosing 9ml every 15 min to bomb any free swimmers at night... I have no Idea how these fish are not all gone, I see some rapid breathing but nothing too concerning, Flashing on occasion, and other than some of my fish looking like powdered sugar, all have incredible appetites. I am in the process of setting up a 300 gal on a temp basis and will pull all fish and let this tank go fallow for 72+ days, I just can't figure out how I have not lost any other fish, I feel like the h202 and uv is doing a great job, but not good enough to start winning the tug of war, we are at a stalemate.... Do you see any issue with me setting up this 300 gallon and doing either the copper or Chloroquine, with that much water volume and 10 small to med size fish I thouhgt I could manage via matched water changes with either CP or Copper... @Jay Hemdal

I’m still thinking you are seeing ich, not velvet. With velvet, you’ll see very rapid breathing, not eating and death in a few days. If you see any “dust” at all, it will be at the end point of the disease. If you can see distinct spots, it isn’t velvet.

That emperor had ich. Trouble is, mixed infections are possible.

Peroxide is really popular in some circles, but it just doesn’t live up to its hype. A lot of the popularity with it isn’t because it works good, but because it is easy to get. Its use is based on a single reference where it was used to treat velvet experimentally at a food fish culture facility in Hawaii.

IMO, copper is safer and works better than chloroquine. However, even amine chelated copper is going to bind with any carbonate material in the tank to some degree.

Hyposalinity will handle ich and flukes, but not velvet or brooklynella.