Help with KH Director "Add-On Control"

Dr. Jim

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Vinny has started to give me help with this problem but since it is the weekend, I'm hoping someone might be able to offer assistance (rather than me having to wait for him to be back in the office).

ADD ON CONTROL: I am dosing 1.4 ml 8 X daily. I would like to change the individual doses by just 0.1 ml at a time with every 0.1 dKH change. Vinny suggested that I set up the variables as follows:

-When parameter deviates by this amount: 1
-Adjust each dose by this amount: 1
-Limit raise: 1
-Limit lower: 1


Over the past few days, measuring twice a day, my KH values have ranged from 7.1 to 7.6 but the amount dosed hasn't changed. Can anybody think of why that is or what I am doing wrong?

I originally thought that 0.1 should be put in the "When parameter deviates by this amount" box AND 0.1 in the "Adjust each dose by this amount" box, but Vinny explained that 1.0 is the lowest number that can be written and that the Director would calculate and adjust dosages by tenths (0.1) if I just put "1" in those boxes.

(I think I can get this to work with the "Adaptive Control" setting, but I'd rather work with volume (mls) rather than %.)

Thanks for helping.
Jim
 
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Dr. Jim

Dr. Jim

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Can anybody that uses ADD-ON CONTROL simply tell me how you have your numbers set?

-When parameter deviates by this amount: ?

-Adjust each dose by this amount: ?
-Limit raise: ?
-Limit lower: ?


(Of course, more detailed answers to my question from the first post will also be appreciated).

Thank you.
 

KaryTse

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These are my numbers:
-When parameter deviates by this amount: 1 dKH
-Adjust each dose by this amount: 7ml
-Limit raise: 3ml
-Limit lower: 3ml


My normal dosage is 12 doses per day, 2ml per dose. The whole system vol is about 300L.

When you said "the amount dosed hasn't changed" did you check the dosage chart to double confirm? The "Calculated adjustment per dosing" cannot display decimal places. So it maybe why you didn't see any change.
 
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Dr. Jim

Dr. Jim

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These are my numbers:
-When parameter deviates by this amount: 1 dKH
-Adjust each dose by this amount: 7ml
-Limit raise: 3ml
-Limit lower: 3ml


My normal dosage is 12 doses per day, 2ml per dose. The whole system vol is about 300L.

When you said "the amount dosed hasn't changed" did you check the dosage chart to double confirm? The "Calculated adjustment per dosing" cannot display decimal places. So it maybe why you didn't see any change.
@KaryTse....thanks for helping with this. I didn't know about the chart, or think to look for it. I now see my dosages have been jumping all over the place over the past few days since I've been playing around with this.

One thing that is not perfectly clear is the "When parameter deviates by this amount" box. I presently have 0.2 dKH in that box, thinking that I don't want any changes until a 0.2 dKH change.... but I now think that it doesn't work that way. If you put 1.0 in that box, there will still be changes even after 0.1 or 0.2 dKH changes, right? (which is what Vinny tried to explain to me I think). If so, then I don't understand what differences occur if you put 0.2 vs 1.0.

Yesterday, I gave up on the ADD-ON CONTROL and switched to ADAPTIVE CONTROL, and set these numbers:
-When parameter deviates by this amount: 0.2 dKH
-Adjust each dose by this amount: 6% (which I think will give me 0.1 ml changes)
-Limit raise: 12% (which I think will limit the change to 0.2 ml)
-Limit lower: 12%


I am dosing 1.6 ml 8 times daily.

Do you think that if I went back to ADD ON CONTROL with these numbers, it would essentially give me the same results?:
-When parameter deviates by this amount: 1
-Adjust each dose by this amount: 1
-Limit raise: 1
-Limit lower: 1


Thanks again for helping......much appreciated!
Jim
 

arking_mark

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Here's how I set it up and why...

1. I set doser for the nominal dose a reef tank uses per day, which is .5dKH. For my tank, I dose 6 times a day and require 24ml of supplement. So 4ml per dose. This ensures that if my tank is at target 8dKH, it still will dose this minimum amout that will be used up b4 next dose.
2. I set the 1dKH deviation volume to the actual ml needed to raise my dKH by 1. The KHD is set to measure 30 minutes b4 dosing. This ensures that after every measurement, my dKH is replenished to at least 8 plus my minimal dose.
3. I limit the max/min dose adjustment to .25dKH because I never want a larger change then that. It protects my tank from anomalous readings as well.

With these setting, I'm typically between 7.9 and 8.1 dKH. Sometimes a little higher and sometimes a little lower. The dKH consumption of my tank varries throughout the day. The more measurements / doses you do the tighter you can lock in the target dKH.
 
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Dr. Jim

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Here's how I set it up and why...

1. I set doser for the nominal dose a reef tank uses per day, which is .5dKH. For my tank, I dose 6 times a day and require 24ml of supplement. So 4ml per dose. This ensures that if my tank is at target 8dKH, it still will dose this minimum amout that will be used up b4 next dose.
2. I set the 1dKH deviation volume to the actual ml needed to raise my dKH by 1. The KHD is set to measure 30 minutes b4 dosing. This ensures that after every measurement, my dKH is replenished to at least 8 plus my minimal dose.
3. I limit the max/min dose adjustment to .25dKH because I never want a larger change then that. It protects my tank from anomalous readings as well.

With these setting, I'm typically between 7.9 and 8.1 dKH. Sometimes a little higher and sometimes a little lower. The dKH consumption of my tank varries throughout the day. The more measurements / doses you do the tighter you can lock in the target dKH.
So, you set the boxes like this, right?:

-When parameter deviates by this amount: 1 dKH
-Adjust each dose by this amount: "X" (# of mls needed to raise by 1 dKH)
-Limit raise: 1/4 of "X"
-Limit lower: 1/4 of "X"


If all this is correct, then I think I got it! But now my new problem, unrelated to the KH Director, is knowing how many mls of buffer raises the dKH of my tank by 1 unit. I believe I mixed equal volumes of each of BRS's recommended stock solutions of carbonate and bicarbonate. I'll need to figure this out somehow :oops:

Thanks for helping!
 
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Dr. Jim

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One last time.....(hopefully :))...... Perhaps someone can say if all this is correct:

- I'm using ADD-ON CONTROL
- I have it set to dose 1.5 ml 8 times daily.
- 38 ml of buffer raises ALK by 1.0 dKH; so 38 div. by 8 doses = 4.75 ml per dose (i.e. the amount needed for each dose to raise the ALK by 1.0 dKH in 24 hours.)

So I set "boxes" like this:

-When parameter deviates by this amount: 1
-Adjust each dose by this amount: 4.75
-Limit raise:
1
-Limit lower:
1

Regarding the LIMITS: Is this correct logic? By setting them at "1", the maximum fluctuation in dKH (up or down) where a dosing change will be made will be about 0.2dKH. Math: 1 div by 4.75 = 0.21
If the measured dKH fluctuates more than 0.2 dKH units, no further changes will be made.

CORRECT?? (If so.... I'm done! :D )

Thanks again!
 

arking_mark

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One last time.....(hopefully :))...... Perhaps someone can say if all this is correct:

- I'm using ADD-ON CONTROL
- I have it set to dose 1.5 ml 8 times daily.
- 38 ml of buffer raises ALK by 1.0 dKH; so 38 div. by 8 doses = 4.75 ml per dose (i.e. the amount needed for each dose to raise the ALK by 1.0 dKH in 24 hours.)

So I set "boxes" like this:

-When parameter deviates by this amount: 1
-Adjust each dose by this amount: 4.75
-Limit raise: 1
-Limit lower: 1

Regarding the LIMITS: Is this correct logic? By setting them at "1", the maximum fluctuation in dKH (up or down) where a dosing change will be made will be about 0.2dKH. Math: 1 div by 4.75 = 0.21
If the measured dKH fluctuates more than 0.2 dKH units, no further changes will be made.

CORRECT?? (If so.... I'm done! :D )

Thanks again!
Not quite...your adjust and limits aren't going to work.

The adjust should be set for actual ml to up your tank by 1dkh. So 38ml based on your info.

The limits should be about 9ml so that any single adjustment to your tank is no more then .25dKH.
 

arking_mark

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Not quite...your adjust and limits aren't going to work.

The adjust should be set for actual ml to up your tank by 1dkh. So 38ml based on your info.

The limits should be about 9ml so that any single adjustment to your tank is no more then .25dKH.
Basically, this will adjust your tank to the set dKH every dose plus the nominal dosing you've set.
 
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Dr. Jim

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Not quite...your adjust and limits aren't going to work.

The adjust should be set for actual ml to up your tank by 1dkh. So 38ml based on your info.

The limits should be about 9ml so that any single adjustment to your tank is no more then .25dKH.
You mean I should put 38 in the box for "Adjust each dose by this amount" ??

Wouldn't that dump in 38 ml on every ("each") dose?
 

arking_mark

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You mean I should put 38 in the box for "Adjust each dose by this amount" ??

Wouldn't that dump in 38 ml on every ("each") dose?
It works like this...

If your dKH target is 8 and your measurement is 8, it will add your nominal dose of 1.5ml. Let's say the next reading is 7.9, a .1 dKH drop (10% of 1dKH). Your adjusted dose will be plus 3.8ml (10% of 38ml) or 5.3ml (3.8 + 1.5). This will bump your dKH to 8dKH plus the increase due to the nominal dose which should be around .04dKH.
 
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Dr. Jim

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It works like this...

If your dKH target is 8 and your measurement is 8, it will add your nominal dose of 1.5ml. Let's say the next reading is 7.9, a .1 dKH drop (10% of 1dKH). Your adjusted dose will be plus 3.8ml (10% of 38ml) or 5.3ml (3.8 + 1.5). This will bump your dKH to 8dKH plus the increase due to the nominal dose which should be around .04dKH.
I understand that part. What I don't get is why I would put 38 in the box that essentially says it will add 38 ml with every dose: "Adjust each dose by this amount". Is this just a problem with poor grammar? Should I think of it as reading something like:
"Adjust each dose by this amount divided by the total number of doses" ?
 

arking_mark

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I understand that part. What I don't get is why I would put 38 in the box that essentially says it will add 38 ml with every dose: "Adjust each dose by this amount". Is this just a problem with poor grammar? Should I think of it as reading something like:
"Adjust each dose by this amount divided by the total number of doses" ?
Let's make sure we are talking the same settings...

SmartSelect_20201123-134858_GHL Connect.jpg


As you can see, the adjust is for a 1dKH deviation. It calculates the actual adjust based on that number for the next dose. The limits sets the maximum actual adjustment.

A .25 deviation from target will look to dose 25% of the 1dKH amount you entered.

Also, if you are above your target dKH, it will reduce your nominal dose.
 
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Dr. Jim

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Let's make sure we are talking the same settings...

SmartSelect_20201123-134858_GHL Connect.jpg


As you can see, the adjust is for a 1dKH deviation. It calculates the actual adjust based on that number for the next dose. The limits sets the maximum actual adjustment.

A .25 deviation from target will look to dose 25% of the 1dKH amount you entered.

Also, if you are above your target dKH, it will reduce your nominal dose.
I think I know where I was going wrong with my "thinking." I was assuming the adjustments would be made gradually over the total number of dosages per day. But I see now that it is designed to make the correction in just one dose, unless you limit it. Correct?

If this is the case, I'm assuming that it can be dangerous if you have too many doses between measurements. Before using the "Control" feature, I was only testing twice a day. But with 8 doses a day, it might be a good idea to test at least 4 times a day. Would you agree?


So, my understanding is that I should be OK with this:

I'm presently dosing 1.5 ml 8 x daily. It takes 38 ml buffer to raise dKH by 1.0 units.

-When parameter deviates by this amount: 1
-Adjust each dose by this amount: 38
-Limit raise: 5
-Limit lower: 5


So if dKH drops by 0.1, it would take 3.8 ml to bring the dKH back to the "set amount" (8.0) but because of the LIMIT, only 0.5 ml (0.1 x 5) will be added to the original 1.5 ml on the next dose. And every subsequent dose will be the same (2.0 ml), until the next measurement. Correct?

And, isn't it true that the number of doses per day has no bearing on any of these calculations?
 

arking_mark

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I think I know where I was going wrong with my "thinking." I was assuming the adjustments would be made gradually over the total number of dosages per day. But I see now that it is designed to make the correction in just one dose, unless you limit it. Correct?

If this is the case, I'm assuming that it can be dangerous if you have too many doses between measurements. Before using the "Control" feature, I was only testing twice a day. But with 8 doses a day, it might be a good idea to test at least 4 times a day. Would you agree?


So, my understanding is that I should be OK with this:

I'm presently dosing 1.5 ml 8 x daily. It takes 38 ml buffer to raise dKH by 1.0 units.

-When parameter deviates by this amount: 1
-Adjust each dose by this amount: 38
-Limit raise: 5
-Limit lower: 5


So if dKH drops by 0.1, it would take 3.8 ml to bring the dKH back to the "set amount" (8.0) but because of the LIMIT, only 0.5 ml (0.1 x 5) will be added to the original 1.5 ml on the next dose. And every subsequent dose will be the same (2.0 ml), until the next measurement. Correct?

And, isn't it true that the number of doses per day has no bearing on any of these calculations?
Its a limitation of the KH Director. It doesn't breakup the adjustment across the number of doses. Literally, every dose after the measurement will be adjusted. That's why you should test b4 each dosing. Otherwise its a headache to try and game it to work. 2-6 times a day would be my recommendation for test/dosing.
 

arking_mark

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I think I know where I was going wrong with my "thinking." I was assuming the adjustments would be made gradually over the total number of dosages per day. But I see now that it is designed to make the correction in just one dose, unless you limit it. Correct?

If this is the case, I'm assuming that it can be dangerous if you have too many doses between measurements. Before using the "Control" feature, I was only testing twice a day. But with 8 doses a day, it might be a good idea to test at least 4 times a day. Would you agree?


So, my understanding is that I should be OK with this:

I'm presently dosing 1.5 ml 8 x daily. It takes 38 ml buffer to raise dKH by 1.0 units.

-When parameter deviates by this amount: 1
-Adjust each dose by this amount: 38
-Limit raise: 5
-Limit lower: 5


So if dKH drops by 0.1, it would take 3.8 ml to bring the dKH back to the "set amount" (8.0) but because of the LIMIT, only 0.5 ml (0.1 x 5) will be added to the original 1.5 ml on the next dose. And every subsequent dose will be the same (2.0 ml), until the next measurement. Correct?

And, isn't it true that the number of doses per day has no bearing on any of these calculations?
Your limit would be +/- 5ml per dose...it doesn't scale the limit.
 
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Dr. Jim

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Your limit would be +/- 5ml per dose...it doesn't scale the limit.
Yes, I found that out the hard way. An extra 5ml was added a few times during the night (added to my usual 1.5ml) which I believe is the reason for my Pearlberry frag being dead (completely white) yesterday morning. :oops: I now have the LIMITS set to 1 ml. Still playing with it. Seems like it should be nice once I get it dialed in.

(Anybody have the original ORA Pearlberry?) :)
 

arking_mark

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Dr. Jim,
Just out of curiosity, why are you using the "ADD ON CONTROL" when the "ADAPTIVE CONTROL" is so easy to set up, automatically adjusts the doses accordingly, and takes all the guess work out of it?
As far as I can tell, they work the exact same way, just one uses the percentage for limit adjustment. Since I know I want to limit any dosage to .25 dKH, it's easier just to set that.
 
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Dr. Jim

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Dr. Jim,
Just out of curiosity, why are you using the "ADD ON CONTROL" when the "ADAPTIVE CONTROL" is so easy to set up, automatically adjusts the doses accordingly, and takes all the guess work out of it?
I didn't know which one would be easier. I thought working with ml's would be easier, but I will investigate the ADAPTIVE CONTROL.

I wonder if it is universally agreed that the ADAPTIVE CONTROL is better. If so, then I wonder why the two choices are offered?? :confused:

Thanks for pointing this out! Much appreciated.
 

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