Hey Old Timers - Do you wonder where it's all coming from?

[o2manyfish]

I've been keeping Reef tanks consistently since 1987. Around 1998 I was a little bit bored with my 125 reef and contemplated getting a bigger tank. It was the first time I used the internet to look up aquariums and reef tanks to see what the latest and greatest was.

Having successfully kept basic LPS, leathers, colts, mushrooms, gsp, etc for years - I have a 125 that was packed with colorful life from top to bottom and edge to edge.

But when I did my search I came across Japanese SPS tanks. And I was mesmerized by the variety and intensity of the colors --- So I jumped in and have been an hard core addict of stony corals ever since.

I'm fortunate in that I have been involved in the aquarium trade and had the opportunities to get the best of the best, as soon as it arrives in the states.

But I am overwhelmed how the quality and vareity of livestock has changed in just the last 5-6 years. Torches, Colored Hammers, Rainbow Goni, Acantho's, Indophyllia, Tenuis, Millepora, the list goes on. Corals are not coming from new oceans, we are not collecting from newly found island chains.

These corals have been collected and brought into the trade for decades. Why do you think it's only in the last few years that the livestock collected has gotten so wildly diverse? And what's been your favorite coral that has changed through your history of reefkeeping?

Dave B

 

[KrisReef]

@dave. B

The answer is simple enough and related to simple supply and demand and greed vs. regulations, imo.

People know what is in the ocean and how to get it. Laws to protect them only drive up the cost of acquisition of any particular species. If I lived near the coral belt I would probably collect my own from my boat while diving or fishing for dinner, two or three times a week.
The trick then is to get the catch to market and as you’re noted there are plenty of other people who have figured out how to make this happen. The money drives the equations and the hobbyists feed the business.
I’m not saying what my favorite coral species is in order to preserve the present price point at the huge margins that it now holds. I like acans, and am too cheap to buy a scoly at the current prices and also share our love for acro’s, wavey LPS and fishes to feed the coral and keep the algae from growing out of control.

If you have a boat and dive gear I’m ready for a deck hand adventure to the coral sea.

 

[c_ronius]

Maybe in recent years there have been more passionate hobbyists actually traveling to the collection areas and speaking with the divers themselves? Like Jake Adams and no doubt plenty of others have done. Showing them exactly what to look for, which as you know is often drastically different in the wild.

With the nutty prices today I would think the divers looking for them are getting some extra incentives for finding the extra sweet corals. Maybe more so than in years past.

 

[Troylee]

Are they thou? I think leds are making things morph to never seen before colors.. I mean put a classic “pearl berry” under a mh and a led it’s 2 different corals… unless you run a very white spectrum

 

[Janet Belanger]

I think some of it is genetics/mutation. We've seen before, people see a new color grow out of an existing colony. They frag it and it grows into something new. I've seen it in my tank, I have orange zoa, and green zoa. I now have some orange zoa with a green mutation on one small section of my orange colony. Did it mutate on its own, or was it a product of the greens nearby? No idea.

Also we blast these things with light, I would venture much of the diversity was there before but the coloration is a product of new hues of lighting.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

A lot of it doesn't come right out of the ocean anymore, most of it's aquacultured for desired colors and other desired phenotypic traits

 

[i cant think]

I have a feeling as many have said it’s simply us finding new genetic mutations within corals and just growing it out and seeing if they’re cloneable and if they are we slam a name on it and rocket the price tag
We also find more strains in the wild and put them under LEDs to get fancy colours that you wouldn’t usually expect to see from certain corals. It’s like Microclados is usually known as the infamous pink and green Strawberry Shortcake but I recently picked up a mini colony of yellow and red/pink.

 

[revhtree]

Great discussion thread!

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Also, now that the hobby has grown to around 2 million worldwide, there's higher demand so there's more incentive to find the best/most valuable pieces now vs when the hobby was in it's infancy.

 

[Salty_Northerner]

Ahh back in 98 we weren't buying frags. We were buying mother colonies. Permits were a lot cheaper back then as well. I always had a wide variety to choose from and one of my favorite corals were mushrooms back in the day. And to this day I cannot find a single mushroom that I used to collect back in the late 90s.

I just got back into the hobby just this past January and I couldn't believe on how the technology has skyrocketed. As well as prices for livestock.

A lot of these corals these days are different than what I was accustomed to. I love my softies like Zoa's and mushrooms. They have changed so much over the years.

I honestly believe that the hobbyist has accumulated and mutated so many corals that we don't need to be sticking her hand in the ocean anymore. Just like fish back in the day we're always direct from the ocean. Would I buy a fish direct from the ocean today, absolutely not! Would I buy a Coral straight from the ocean nope.

Don't get me wrong, I'm by no means a tree hugger.. I just believe there is enough out there in people's homes that all of us can trade. That's how I started up back in January, put a listing on a local website and a couple people just gave me some small frags and those they said is if you get anything different pay it forward.

Anyways I'm just starting to ramble again so move along LOL have a great day everyone

 

[i cant think]

Ahh back in 98 we weren't buying frags. We were buying mother colonies. Permits were a lot cheaper back then as well. I always had a wide variety to choose from and one of my favorite corals were mushrooms back in the day. And to this day I cannot find a single mushroom that I used to collect back in the late 90s.

Don't get me wrong, I'm by no means a tree hugger.. I just believe there is enough out there in people's homes that all of us can trade. That's how I started up back in January, put a listing on a local website and a couple people just gave me some small frags and those they said is if you get anything different pay it forward.

I mean, we do still buy colonies (albeit the SPS colonies sure aren’t quite so big as they used to be… I just brought ‘colonies’ that are maybe 2-3” tall by 3-4” wide). They’re by no means the colonies we knew and loved and even then they go for quite a bit more. Softies and LPS we can get colonies of for cheaper prices as they’re ‘poor’ and not sought after.

I know a few people in the hobby and yes working in an LFS helps (I don’t generally talk to customers as if they’re just customers but more like how I’d talk to any hobbyist) but people out there are willing to trade for pieces!
I mean I’m growing a piece out currently to trade with someone who I know very well and even helped me early on.
This piece must be 4-5” and was worth it as it’s not usually this blue in looks. I’m growing it out to double it’s size then going to trim it back and half it then trade with other hobbyists who wanted this piece.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I mean, we do still buy colonies (albeit the SPS colonies sure aren’t quite so big as they used to be… I just brought ‘colonies’ that are maybe 2-3” tall by 3-4” wide). They’re by no means the colonies we knew and loved and even then they go for quite a bit more. Softies and LPS we can get colonies of for cheaper prices as they’re ‘poor’ and not sought after.

I know a few people in the hobby and yes working in an LFS helps (I don’t generally talk to customers as if they’re just customers but more like how I’d talk to any hobbyist) but people out there are willing to trade for pieces!
I mean I’m growing a piece out currently to trade with someone who I know very well and even helped me early on.
This piece must be 4-5” and was worth it as it’s not usually this blue in looks. I’m growing it out to double it’s size then going to trim it back and half it then trade with other hobbyists who wanted this piece.

We get full blown colonies here still but i don't think that's any surprise.

 

[Salty_Northerner]

I mean, we do still buy colonies (albeit the SPS colonies sure aren’t quite so big as they used to be… I just brought ‘colonies’ that are maybe 2-3” tall by 3-4” wide). They’re by no means the colonies we knew and loved and even then they go for quite a bit more. Softies and LPS we can get colonies of for cheaper prices as they’re ‘poor’ and not sought after.

I know a few people in the hobby and yes working in an LFS helps (I don’t generally talk to customers as if they’re just customers but more like how I’d talk to any hobbyist) but people out there are willing to trade for pieces!
I mean I’m growing a piece out currently to trade with someone who I know very well and even helped me early on.
This piece must be 4-5” and was worth it as it’s not usually this blue in looks. I’m growing it out to double it’s size then going to trim it back and half it then trade with other hobbyists who wanted this piece.

Yeah that's a bonus working at a lfs. I probably should have edited my post about buying Coral direct from ocean.. softies, no need for that. The SPS would be a yes and no for me. If it came from a well credited accuculture supplier then yes I definitely would purchase. Those guys do it right and not just go to a coral reef and just start cutting Coral and shipping it out the next day doesn't fly well with me. There was a guy in Canada that I used to deal with would always fly out to Indonesia and literally would jam his suitcases full of different corals and invertebrates and bring it back into Canada and make huge money doing so. I picked up the newspaper one day and they had a huge write-up on this guy on how he was caught smuggling these animals into the country and once they started to investigate deeper and found out he was actually selling out of his basement... I can't remember if he did any time in jail but I know he got slapped hard with multiple fines.

But yes what you're doing is absolutely fantastic! Sharing is caring

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I

Yeah that's a bonus working at a lfs. I probably should have edited my post about buying Coral direct from ocean.. softies, no need for that. The SPS would be a yes and no for me. If it came from a well credited accuculture supplier then yes I definitely would purchase. Those guys do it right and not just go to a coral reef and just start cutting Coral and shipping it out the next day doesn't fly well with me. There was a guy in Canada that I used to deal with would always fly out to Indonesia and literally would jam his suitcases full of different corals and invertebrates and bring it back into Canada and make huge money doing so. I picked up the newspaper one day and they had a huge write-up on this guy on how he was caught smuggling these animals into the country and once they started to investigate deeper and found out he was actually selling out of his basement... I can't remember if he did any time in jail but I know he got slapped hard with multiple fines.

But yes what you're doing is absolutely fantastic! Sharing is caring

Can't imagine very many of the corals and inverts would survive that journey

 

[i cant think]

Yeah that's a bonus working at a lfs. I probably should have edited my post about buying Coral direct from ocean.. softies, no need for that. The SPS would be a yes and no for me. If it came from a well credited accuculture supplier then yes I definitely would purchase. Those guys do it right and not just go to a coral reef and just start cutting Coral and shipping it out the next day doesn't fly well with me. There was a guy in Canada that I used to deal with would always fly out to Indonesia and literally would jam his suitcases full of different corals and invertebrates and bring it back into Canada and make huge money doing so. I picked up the newspaper one day and they had a huge write-up on this guy on how he was caught smuggling these animals into the country and once they started to investigate deeper and found out he was actually selling out of his basement... I can't remember if he did any time in jail but I know he got slapped hard with multiple fines.

But yes what you're doing is absolutely fantastic! Sharing is caring

Such a shame to hear about that guy… Bali is the only place I’d ever get Aquacultured pieces from. They do it properly and rarely fail it. If only I could get a carduus that actually thrived under my LFS’s lighting and didn’t die.

As for sharing, I think this is the best way this hobby will ever progress. Trading around people is the best way you know you’re getting your moneys worth. Maybe you aren’t getting the absolute best pieces but you Atleast get pieces that have been in another’s tank for however long so it’s adapted to thrive in captivity.

 

[Enderg60]

A few areas of collection opened up such as Australia. But mostly its marketing, selective farming and LED's.

The "ULTRA RAINBOW" corals of today were the blah greyish corals of yesteryear.

The only "new" corals Ive noticed are orange euphillia. Everything else is still around just with a moronic name and instagram model levels of photo editing.

The amazing goni's were around, they just were no RED red. So they didnt sell.

Same with BTA's. A Colorado sunburst was the half breed step child of a RTBA and a GBTA no one wanted back in the day.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I

A few areas of collection opened up such as Australia. But mostly its marketing, selective farming and LED's.

The "ULTRA RAINBOW" corals of today were the blah greyish corals of yesteryear.

The only "new" corals Ive noticed are orange euphillia. Everything else is still around just with a moronic name and instagram model levels of photo editing.

The amazing goni's were around, they just were no RED red. So they didnt sell.

Same with BTA's. A Colorado sunburst was the half breed step child of a RTBA and a GBTA no one wanted back in the day.

I Agree marketing plays a big role in influencing what corals people want whether they realize it or not.

 

[KrisReef]

I

Can't imagine very many of the corals and inverts would survive that journey

Coral shipping is one aspect of this hobby that still needs improvement imo.

25+ years ago I went on vacation to the South Pacific. I had frags, clams, that I bagged up and put in my luggage. I also grabbed a pretty birdsnest baseball sized colony that I was going to bleach and put on my coffee table. The native guy at luggage inspection smiled at what souvenirs I had packed and we flew 24 hours before we got home. Lots of frags perished in the dirt water. The clams were fine except for the one that got crushed when my dad dropped my bag at the airport. I wept.

The birdsnest that I packed in a baggie and wrapped in my dirty laundry was still alive the next day when I unpacked and I put it in the aquarium and it was alive and happy.

The guy smuggling coral wasn’t selling table ornaments. They have to be alive to make the bucks.

The most difficult thing I have noticed is that zoanthids are difficult to ship because they poison the bag water quickly? They melt out of water so they are hard to transport, or they used to be?

The modern aquaculture colonies are a great innovation for the hobby and make poaching less desirable imo.

 

[Opus]

Ahh back in 98 we weren't buying frags. We were buying mother colonies. Permits were a lot cheaper back then as well. I always had a wide variety to choose from and one of my favorite corals were mushrooms back in the day. And to this day I cannot find a single mushroom that I used to collect back in the late 90s.

I just got back into the hobby just this past January and I couldn't believe on how the technology has skyrocketed. As well as prices for livestock.

A lot of these corals these days are different than what I was accustomed to. I love my softies like Zoa's and mushrooms. They have changed so much over the years.

I honestly believe that the hobbyist has accumulated and mutated so many corals that we don't need to be sticking her hand in the ocean anymore. Just like fish back in the day we're always direct from the ocean. Would I buy a fish direct from the ocean today, absolutely not! Would I buy a Coral straight from the ocean nope.

Don't get me wrong, I'm by no means a tree hugger.. I just believe there is enough out there in people's homes that all of us can trade. That's how I started up back in January, put a listing on a local website and a couple people just gave me some small frags and those they said is if you get anything different pay it forward.

Anyways I'm just starting to ramble again so move along LOL have a great day everyone

You also have to consider many of the collection areas back then are no longer legal to collect from. Many of the mushrooms we saw back in the 90's may not exist in the current collection areas. I started in the late 80's and remember buying live rock from FL and if you were willing to pay a couple of dollars more per pound you could get the ultra FL live rock that was covered in ricordeas and other "hitchhiker" corals.

I'm like you and still love my softies. Unfortunately they are rarely collected so are harder to find and also a lot more expensive.

 

[Wasabiroot]

Depends on the coral too- an acanthophyllia that is extremely difficult/impossible to frag successfully imo should be monitored vs something like a montipora. Tragedy of the commons and all that. Zoas from what I recall aren't necessarily fouling up the water but do come in with a ton of parasites and hitchhikers so need to be dipped.

It seems like the high quality shippers can send product with few deaths. Fragbox TV often receives aussie and indo shipments with >200 pieces // 5-10k shipments and only 1-3 colony deaths; you just pay for it out the nose with the cost of freight weight.

Lots of corals can change appearance under different light and nutrient levels too; probably some specimen overlap amongst dealers. I try to look up species based on name and base my care on that