High Calcium and Alkalinity

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

After you measure your new salt water, we can assess whether the alk test might be faulty or if the salt mix is the source.

If alk is rising (really, not just testing error), then something is adding alkalinity to the tank.

 

[Rgarcia80]

After you measure your new salt water, we can assess whether the alk test might be faulty or if the salt mix is the source.

If alk is rising (really, not just testing error), then something is adding alkalinity to the tank.

Thanks for all the help. It means a lot.

Should I change the water or let the mix sit and test it again?

 

[Rgarcia80]

The alk test kit is from the Red Sea marine care kit.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Don't do anything to the tank until we determine if the alk result is accurate (or reasonably likely to be).

Do you have some existing new salt water ready? Measure it if so, and make it if you do not.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, people often make problems worse by fixing things that aren't actually broken, or don't understand why they are broken, myself included.

 

[Rgarcia80]

Don't do anything to the tank until we determine if the alk result is accurate (or reasonably likely to be).

Do you have some existing new salt water ready? Measure it if so, and make it if you do not.

Yes, I mixed a 2 gallon batch and tested it. The Alk was 7.5 and the Ca was 440-460

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, so something is adding alk to the tank. Might be the live rock. If it was artificial rock that wasn't fully cured before using it, it can keep adding alk to the water for a while, but usually pH is elevated with that source.

Double check the purity of the water used for top off, but if the salt water uses the same fresh water then that isn't it.

Do a good size water change then keep tracking the alk.

 

[DarkSky]

Did you use quikrete or other concrete like material to do your rockwork?

 

[Rgarcia80]

OK, so something is adding alk to the tank. Might be the live rock. If it was artificial rock that wasn't fully cured before using it, it can keep adding alk to the water for a while, but usually pH is elevated with that source.

Double check the purity of the water used for top off, but if the salt water uses the same fresh water then that isn't it.

Do a good size water change then keep tracking the alk.

Thank you for helping me with this issue.

 

[Rgarcia80]

Did you use quikrete or other concrete like material to do your rockwork?

No, the only thing I used in my rock work was Aquamaxx Reef Welder to bound some rock together.

 

[Rgarcia80]

OK, so something is adding alk to the tank. Might be the live rock. If it was artificial rock that wasn't fully cured before using it, it can keep adding alk to the water for a while, but usually pH is elevated with that source.

Double check the purity of the water used for top off, but if the salt water uses the same fresh water then that isn't it.

Do a good size water change then keep tracking the alk.

I changed the water with what I mixed and here are my parameters.

Ca- 400
Alk-8
Ph-8.0
Nh3/4-.25
No2-0
No3-5
Sg-1.025

 

[Mark Derail]

All RODI water, refractometer sg 1.026 @26c. Nitrate barely registers, phosphate at or below 0.03.

Main tank last night: Calcium above 500, Alk 13.1, Magnesium 1500.

But... I had just done a 50% WC two days ago! (Instant Ocean)

Then I figured, time for some control! Mixed up 40g of Instant Ocean, expecting to do another 50%...
Tested the Instant Ocean. Shocker!

Alk 13.1 !! From a fresh batch! No wonder the display tank is at 13.1 also. Not 11, but 13.1. Salinert kit expires in 2020, and in it, they explain that they've improved the kit.

So before you start blaming X Y Z or looking for a problem, compare a fresh batch of newly made ocean water to your tank.

Now how do I get these numbers down ??? I was about to do a big WC, now I'm not so sure, replacing 500/13.1/1500 with similar new water won't do much.

 

[Martin Kuhn]

Hello Mark
About 13 dKH is not shocking at all . Several "Reef" salt mixes have as high alkalinity in order to "push" KH levels for tanks where Alk is not dosed.

I don't see that as a problem as
- you normally exchange only about 5..10% by a waterchange and thus also get only 5-10% of Alk increase starting from the level you have
- Alk is consumed in nearly each tank quite fast

So doning another water change with the same salt will not bring Alk down
As already psoted in my first reply: Either you simply "wait" for Alk to come down (which is not a issue and thus is the thing i would recommend) OR "you do a water change with a "Not-Reef" salt mixture beeing lower on Alk.

FYI: In Europe there is even a salt mixture with 0 dKH avaliable. This is intended for users using "tap water" that already brings "some" dKH with it.

best rgds
Martin

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree that I am not surprised IO shows 13 dKH.

Generally, I'd just let it drop on its own.

Are you dosing anything at all?

 

[Mark Derail]

Not dosing. I've been waiting for the money for all the test kits first before adding anything else.

I figured big WCs can't hurt, as long as the "mix" is the same, hence getting a good refractometer. It's calibrated ok too (just retested it).

I've added about 1 US Gal of RODI (slowly) in the overflow box, which drains to a 40g sump with skimmer / live rocks / cheato / magic mud.
For good measure, some small bags of Phosban trapped in between the baffles, as the last two weeks phosphate was sky high, where I was doing 50% WC every day for a week.

Last Friday I put all the fish in a QT tank, so that I can address each problem individually, as I kept losing fish, and not knowing if it's because of Ich or Velvet. I have the QT on Cupramine, ramping up slowly. I have a copper test kit to make sure I don't ever go past 0.5. I'm at 0.25 right now, and fish are happy & eating.

Funny thing, as long as I never tested, just eye-balling it - is stuff thriving or dying - with decent bi-weekly (ended up being tri-weekly) WCs, I figure salt and RODI is cheap. Fish and corals are not cheap.
It's only when I saw 13.1 Alk and over 500 calcium and 1500 Magnesium, that I went OMG AAAARRGH.

Buuuut, last 48 hours, nothing died. Getting the phosphate to normal was quite time consuming.

 

[Martin Kuhn]

Hello Mark
with your last post you gave us new information
- no dosing, just waterchanges at the moment
- you have issues with your fish. This might also be because ammonia due to a not yet fully cycled tank
- you use/combine already several methods right now: MagicMud, chaeto, phosphate adsorbers, ...

Waterchanges with SaltMix and RODI definately is not the cheapest way, also not the one with little effort. But of course it is a valid way to deal with issues quite fast and with low risk.
Also it is not only a matter of money BUT it is your responsibility to take care of your tanks life stock with highest priority.

new recommendation
- take care about your tanks nutrient situation and thus maybe toxic issue first. You should be able to measure Ammonia, N2, N3 and PO4 in order to judge if your tank is cycled.
Having fish as bioload already in the tank is a challenge at this period. I suggest to support with adding and feeding de-/nitrifying bacteria cultures. Also to check if your tanks water flow is ok everywhere (avoid dead corners with no flow, assembling detritus) which also supports establishing a strong enough bacteria population which is the most important thing of a reef aquarium.

- Manage your Ca/Alk, Mg consumption at a later point of time. It starts getting important in order to provide good conditions for corals, but not earlier than if the other things are on track.

much success
Martin

 

[Mark Derail]

So the reef tank this morning is gorgeous, before any tests.
Only will consider dosing anything when levels of any one thing goes down. I got the Balling method Aqua Forest kit with a Jebao doser on stand-by. I knew that with frequent WC, I didn't need to dose anything. Just got a good deal, and knew it would be used in the future.

History

I ended up buying not one, but two Rescue tanks (Kijiji abandons, selling off dirt cheap) over two consecutive weekends. The first batch went well, but there was only 5 live rocks, and I had a nice 48x18x24 sump with three compartments ready to roll (also Kijiji).
The problems started a week after combining the two rescues together. Ich problems, phosphate problems.

So when the phosphates started shooting up, Ich or velvel made an appearance. I started a 20g QT tank bare-bottom, daily WC of 5g, and putting in some Cupramine as per directions.
I finally got the phosphates down into the 0.03 range, it staying low for a consecutive 5 days, with daily feeding of corals & two anemones.​

QT woes...

All the fish are in a QT tank (been about a week), and in the QT I've had some die-offs (older & newer). Doing daily 5g RODI WC + 20 drops of Cupramine in the QT (about 20%) and everything tests normal.
Copper tests at around 0.10 this past week and maintaining.

When the new tang died within 24hrs in this water, that is also at 13 Alk and 0.10-ish copper, screw that. Did a 50% WC and no added Cupramine. Fish are happier, and those with Ich are finally looking better.
I think the high Alk in the QT tank + low copper was too much of a stress for new arrivals.

Here I thought, since I'm running a QT tank for at least 6 weeks, might as well get a replacement tang that died two weeks ago when I having lots of problems.
(Those fish weren't bought - they came with the "Rescue" tank and live rocks - a person on Kijiji wanting to abandon the hobby)​

After about a week of running the QT tank, and planning on keeping the fish & reef separate for at least six weeks, I figured, now's a good time to get replacement fish.
The baby goby & baby tang didn't live more than 2 days, bummer. Back to square one with the QT.

Existing fish will stay in QT until I see no more white spots for 4 consecutive weeks, before being reintroduced in the reef tank.
New fish will be started AFTER (in 2 or 3 months) in a new QT without copper, just 20g and basic filtration. They'll have to be pest-free 4 weeks before graduating to the main tank.

Getting an air-powered sponge filter that has room for some media, that will be cycled in the sump, for this future use. The QT tank will become a permanent tank below, besides the sump tank.

What kick-started my post was that after seeing, finally stability, testing for Ca/Alk/Mg, seeing such high numbers - never having dosed! Then testing the Instant Ocean fresh batch, and similar high numbers.

Perhaps for the future also, the QT tank, a different brand of salt mix. And bringing all the test kits to the LFS to see what their bare-bottom tanks SW parameters are - then match that back home.

The guy I bought the sump from, swears up & down on the merits of Aqua Forest products. He's got a bigger budget, and buys only adult fish. I like the babies and rearing them.