No kidding. My tap water has fewer phosphates than that. Just measured it at 1.58 two weeks ago.
High Phosphates need help!!
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mcarroll
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I know that's chemically possible and that it surely happens. But I seriously question the scale that we seem to think it happens on and just wonder if you've seen anything "science-y" that indicates that binding is really possible like this?
I've tried to look into it a little. While PO4 bound to calcium carbonate IS an important source of phosphate on nutrient-poor reefs, from what I can tell about that binding: it only happens with particulate calcium carbonate, the amount is directly related to PO4 concentration in the water, the amount bound rises and falls along with that concentration, continuously, in real time. There's no way I see for a massive time-released reservoir to build up.
Seems like there has to be a different (or additional) explanation for those infrequent cases where we see what appears to be "phosphate leaching". I want to say that the reservoir is microbial in nature rather than chemical, but I have no evidence yet...just a gut feeling.
mcarroll
10K Club member
I think I missed this before...and if your ORP is really at the level your meter is telling you, I don't think we should ignore it.
Have you had a chance recently to dig around in your sand bed to see if it's got a lot of detritus packed in it? Can you see the bottom from under the stand by chance?
Check out Randy's article on ORP:
www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/rhf/feature/index.php
Light readings will be helpful going forward, but for now (if you know) I was only wondering about how the lights compared generally....do you know if your lights are at least "pretty similar" or "completely different"?
So you DO have older corals and THE OLDER ONES are mostly the ones dying off or otherwise having problems???
Did the the brain and scoly start looking bad when the new corals were added, or what happened around that time frame? Any idea why they rebounded?
The aragonite to phosphate binding is in equilibrium with the water in the tank, or ocean. A tank with 1.0 PPM phosphate will have all kinds bound in the rock and sand - probably enough to keep the phosphate level near 1.0 even after using a pound of GFO. Live rock from the ocean has nearly none. Lower the tank water, the rock will release... raise the tank water, the rock will bind more if the structure is not full.
Look out for the threads where people have a fair amount of phosphate in the water. The use some GFO and get it down to where they want it. In a few days, the PO4 is right back up there almost to where it was before. The rock released it back into the water column. It takes many, many reactors full of GFO to get it all out of the rocks.
In the olden days, this used to manifest in what people called "old tank syndrome" where the sand and rock would eventually bind so much that phosphate would start to rise very rapidly, yet the sand would keep the nitrate very low like you would expect. The sand got blamed for leeching phosphate when in actuality, it just could not bind anymore. It was covering up bad husbandry and lack of water changes or an effective fuge as phosphate export and was masking the issue for as long as it could. Keep in mind that people did not really have ways to test phosphate very well back then, but once you were at .5 or .1, a Salifert kit would really glow.
In the current hobby, this is very common with dead/dry rock full of terrestrial phosphates that just absorbed and absorbed and never were in oligotrophic water to then release. Acid baths can be a nice start, but some have issues for more than a year before their phosphate will stay down.
I think that bound phosphate is one of the least known issues in the hobby and one of the silent issues with dead/dry rock that people really fight. I think that lots of people would have made different choices had they known about the potential for issues. Not everybody reports issues, but a lot sure do.
There is a reference in Dr. Holmes-Farley's Phosphate article that might apply - it is link #4. Here is an excerpt from his article:
Look out for the threads where people have a fair amount of phosphate in the water. The use some GFO and get it down to where they want it. In a few days, the PO4 is right back up there almost to where it was before. The rock released it back into the water column. It takes many, many reactors full of GFO to get it all out of the rocks.
In the olden days, this used to manifest in what people called "old tank syndrome" where the sand and rock would eventually bind so much that phosphate would start to rise very rapidly, yet the sand would keep the nitrate very low like you would expect. The sand got blamed for leeching phosphate when in actuality, it just could not bind anymore. It was covering up bad husbandry and lack of water changes or an effective fuge as phosphate export and was masking the issue for as long as it could. Keep in mind that people did not really have ways to test phosphate very well back then, but once you were at .5 or .1, a Salifert kit would really glow.
In the current hobby, this is very common with dead/dry rock full of terrestrial phosphates that just absorbed and absorbed and never were in oligotrophic water to then release. Acid baths can be a nice start, but some have issues for more than a year before their phosphate will stay down.
I think that bound phosphate is one of the least known issues in the hobby and one of the silent issues with dead/dry rock that people really fight. I think that lots of people would have made different choices had they known about the potential for issues. Not everybody reports issues, but a lot sure do.
There is a reference in Dr. Holmes-Farley's Phosphate article that might apply - it is link #4. Here is an excerpt from his article:
mcarroll - it seems like it has been about a decade, or more, since we have had a good chat about this. I would love to take this to the chemistry forum to see if anybody has any articles with any formulas or numbers. If you decide to do this, please tag me so that I can follow along. I want to say that just when I joined RC, this was laid out for some of us by Dr. Holmes-Farley and it really helped my understand of captive husbandry go to another level. I have found it all to be true in my own experiences, my local friends and the folks on the internet who need help. It might be time for a refresher or more information.
Also, GFO has the same relationship as aragonite... it will only bind to equilibrium. If you change water and lower your in-tank phosphate level and do not change your GFO at the same time, then your GFO has now become a reservoir and will release some back into the water.
FWIW - the other one that I really learned a lot from is when he said that nearly all the phosphate from animals is excreted in urine and that any organics or phosphate in feces is gone very quickly and then becomes benign, very likely before any filtration can get to it. Since then, I have not been in a rush to clean my sumps or dead spots, although I do it because accumulation can gum up the works for the microfauna.
Also, GFO has the same relationship as aragonite... it will only bind to equilibrium. If you change water and lower your in-tank phosphate level and do not change your GFO at the same time, then your GFO has now become a reservoir and will release some back into the water.
FWIW - the other one that I really learned a lot from is when he said that nearly all the phosphate from animals is excreted in urine and that any organics or phosphate in feces is gone very quickly and then becomes benign, very likely before any filtration can get to it. Since then, I have not been in a rush to clean my sumps or dead spots, although I do it because accumulation can gum up the works for the microfauna.
EmdeReef
2500 Club Member
Great discussion. I think the question is if phosphates at ~1 would kill the corals, especially soft corals?! As for ORP I’d first make sure it’s a good/calibrated probe. Based on my limited understanding of it, it would be somewhat hard to pinpoint a problem based on orp values as it could mean a lot of different things... I have an orp probe just because it came with my P4 but never pay attention to it tbh.
mcarroll
10K Club member
I actually have asked once or twice, but if there was an answer, I'm not recalling it from memory.
Admittedly I did not point the question at anyone specifically, and not in the chemistry forum....but those folks were in at least one of those discussions. (I think I already tagged him on this thread once.
)If it's in equalibrium, doen't that mean the level will permanently draw down to whatever level you physically remove from the water?
If the level of PO4 is able to "rebound" after the fact, then something else has to explain it – doesn't it? Equalibrium is continuous and real-time, at least AFAIK.
Recall I didn't claim it doesn't happen.
I just doubt that chemical aragonite binding can fully explain the quantity of PO4 that folks apparently see leaching in some cases. If it really can, it would be cool to see some experimental data on it.
40B Knasty
Valuable Member
1) Did you rinse the GFO?
2) Is there to much flow going through the GFO and it is sending fine particles into your tank? Meaning the tumble is to high.
3) Did you add to much GFO stripping the tank to fast? Meaning you didn't build up to suggested amount.
2) Is there to much flow going through the GFO and it is sending fine particles into your tank? Meaning the tumble is to high.
3) Did you add to much GFO stripping the tank to fast? Meaning you didn't build up to suggested amount.
mcarroll
10K Club member
This is good and sparked an idea!
"Oligotrophic" and "eutrophic" don't describe the water, they describe the ecosystem.
The nutrient loading from eutrophism happens in the sediments, and it is microbial acquisition and binding, not chemical/geological.
That brings me back to this article:
Response of heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophic picoplankton and heterotrophic nanoflagellates to re-oligotrophication
You don't get nutrients back out of a eutrophied environment with GFO. It's not that simple.
To me, this is a good potential explanation for the significant cases of PO4 leaching we see sometimes. (Still not saying that's what's going on here in this thread...not yet anyway.)
The likelihood of microbial mats holding that much PO4 vs bare aragonite chemical binding seems much higher to me. I could still be wrong, of course.
mcarroll
10K Club member
I tagged Randy earlier to see what he thinks.
My guess is "no" based on what I've read....but that's not comprehensive or directly about a situation like this tank's.
Just the stuff you see on this search which it all journal articles I've saved over time on the topic of phosphate which I think are interesting, like these two for example:
Limited phosphorus availability is the Achilles heel of tropical reef corals in a warming ocean
Phosphate Excretion by Anemonefish and Uptake by Giant Sea Anemones: Demand Outstrips Supply
Lots of guidance in those articles saying phosphates are protective, and good, enhance growth.....can't recall any guidance saying it's harmful UNLESS phosphate is missing or unavailable...that's always bad. But there are always gray areas and I also don't have a photographic memory.
(I do have an "OK" memory tho. )
O'l Salty
Active Member
Have you made any changes to the tank? Flow or lighting? I wouldn't worry about the Po4 unless you have an algae problem. Have you tried running some carbon? OPR at 38 is odd but if it isn't bouncing around a lot I wouldn't be too concerned.
mcarroll
10K Club member
Can you elaborate at all? In Randy's article is seemed to say that 150-600+ is sorta normal.....and the ocean depths might see values in the negative at the same magnitude. Seems like this tank is way too close to the ocean-depths range, but I'm not familiar enough with the chemistry to jump to any conclusions myself.
OP
OP
rudyrizzo
Active Member
I took my R/O water to my LFS and they tested for phosphates and I checked it myself both tests came back 0. I do regular water changes every 2 weeks. Started with live rock, feed LRS reef frenzy and mysis I even just started straining my food (separating food from water). I feed my corals a mix of Roe, plankton, reef roids. This is why i'm so confused. Is it safe to add corals? Just tested my phosphates again came in at 0.90.
mcarroll
10K Club member
Another thing I forgot to ask about is that Mg and Ca seem sorta high.....1300 and 420 would be about normal. Are the numbers you posted typical?
Sounds like that could be A LOT of "messy" foods.
Again, how's your sand bed if you swirl your finger (or something) in a few spots around the rocks, under pump outlets, etc....typical settling zones?
OP
OP
rudyrizzo
Active Member
Check out Randy's article on ORP:
www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/rhf/feature/index.php
Light readings will be helpful going forward, but for now (if you know) I was only wondering about how the lights compared generally....do you know if your lights are at least "pretty similar" or "completely different"?
So you DO have older corals and THE OLDER ONES are mostly the ones dying off or otherwise having problems???
Did the the brain and scoly start looking bad when the new corals were added, or what happened around that time frame? Any idea why they rebounded?[/QUOTE]
I have an 8 bulb T5 Aquatic life. My purples come on at 8am and turn off at 5pm, my whites come on at 9am and turn off at 1pm, my blues come on at 5pm until 1am. For my blues I also have a LED which comes on and off with the T5 bulbs. If you think I should adjust the times please tell me what you'd do. The acans were some of the first corals I added 3 years ago. Last corals I added were 3 months ago. They were dipped and those corals look amazing. I talked to a friend of mine and added Polyplab Colors, they rebounded but my acans still died.
www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/rhf/feature/index.php
Light readings will be helpful going forward, but for now (if you know) I was only wondering about how the lights compared generally....do you know if your lights are at least "pretty similar" or "completely different"?
So you DO have older corals and THE OLDER ONES are mostly the ones dying off or otherwise having problems???
Did the the brain and scoly start looking bad when the new corals were added, or what happened around that time frame? Any idea why they rebounded?[/QUOTE]
I have an 8 bulb T5 Aquatic life. My purples come on at 8am and turn off at 5pm, my whites come on at 9am and turn off at 1pm, my blues come on at 5pm until 1am. For my blues I also have a LED which comes on and off with the T5 bulbs. If you think I should adjust the times please tell me what you'd do. The acans were some of the first corals I added 3 years ago. Last corals I added were 3 months ago. They were dipped and those corals look amazing. I talked to a friend of mine and added Polyplab Colors, they rebounded but my acans still died.
40B Knasty
Valuable Member
I have an 8 bulb T5 Aquatic life. My purples come on at 8am and turn off at 5pm, my whites come on at 9am and turn off at 1pm, my blues come on at 5pm until 1am. For my blues I also have a LED which comes on and off with the T5 bulbs. If you think I should adjust the times please tell me what you'd do. The acans were some of the first corals I added 3 years ago. Last corals I added were 3 months ago. They were dipped and those corals look amazing. I talked to a friend of mine and added Polyplab Colors, they rebounded but my acans still died.[/QUOTE]
Listen man. You were obviously were lazy about swapping out your GFO or just lacked a lot of knowledge how it works and thought it was the miracle pill to solving phosphates that you could swap out when you wanted.
I had Chemipure Elite(which is GFO) melt a yellow hammer and aussie gold torch. It is like taking a cup of GFO and sticking it in your tank vs a half a table spoon which can go a long way. My experience with GFO. Stay away from it and I know others who have said the same thing happen to them. Read online about all the people that said, "GFO killed my corals."
I am guessing from the laziness or lack of knowledge from taking so long to change out your GFO. Which ever it maybe. A) You did not rinse it. B) The flow is to high. C) You added to much D) all of the above, because you didn't answer the questions I asked and you would have known to do it sooner if you read up about it.
Think of it like volcanic ash for you to breathe. It is not going to be good for you.
Not trying to be harsh. Just trying to figure it all out.
Randy Holmes-Farley
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It won't. Some great reef tanks have phosphate at 1 ppm:
https://reefs.com/magazine/skeptical-reefkeeping-ix-test-kits-chasing-numbers-and-phosphate/
Rich’s 150 gallon display, on a 300 gallon system, is running a phosphate level of 1.24 ppm, a level at 24.8 times higher than the often recommended .05 ppm. Photo by Richard Ross.
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I expect the ORP of 38 is an error unless you are dosing large amounts of low ORP chemicals, such as vitamin C.
This is a good question and probably deserving of clarification going forward. The equilibrium is about the level and not the amount. The rocks can contain so much more bound phosphate that the levels then rebounds to a very-close-but-slightly lower-than-before new equilibrium level. What I cannot tell is if this extraction from the aragonite is linear or in a slight reverse-exponential pattern - it is certainly not a steep exponential curve.
GFO and water will also hold a different amount at the same level, or else it would not work any better than a water change. Saturated GFO will certainly release back into water with lower levels of phosphate.
I am making up this example, but this is what you might see:
- Tank Water P With P Filled Rocks, GFO added, Immediate Tank P After GFO, Tank P after 48 Hours, or so
- 1.0, 200ml,.12,1.0
- 1.0, 200ml,.12,1.0
- .99, 200ml,.12,.99
- .98, 200ml,.12,.98
- .98,200ml,.11,.98
- .98,200ml,.11,.98
- ...
This might be easy to experiment with some phosphate additive that can be measured, let it mingle with some weight of aragonite in a bucket for a month of two and see how much is removed from the water. Then, see how much it goes down with some weight of GFO.
I had a friend with a really badly neglected FOWLR with some fantastic Marshall Island live rock that he wanted to use for a reef. GFO was not cutting it, so he ordered a 8G bucket of aluminum media, which I have observed to be significantly more powerful than GFO. It took almost this whole bucket before his P levels would stay below .05 where he wanted them. I do not know if the aluminum media will release phosphate, or if it is bound permanently - would love to know.
Lastly, there are a few articles that you can find that show some pretty clear studies that higher phosphate will limit calcification and lower levels will promote it (leading to burnt tips as calcification outpaces tissue in low P acropora tanks with abundance of carbonate, calcium and magnesium). As anybody with higher P can tell you, coralline stops after a while. Acros slow down. There are also a few that show high levels of phosphate will inhibit dino (zoox) growth and reproduction in true (hard) coral.
It important for everybody to know that the vast majority of the high-phosphate tanks that people like to show off did not achieve their current success with levels that high... most of them let the levels climb later on after a period of more traditional nutrient levels that led to the growth. In some cases, the folks will tell you that they have lost certain kinds of coral, but it is, by no means, a death sentence to all of the inhabitants. Don't just look at Richard Ross's tank and assume that you can get there by doing the same thing... he gave a 1 hour talk (you can find it with a Google search) about all of the nuance that goes into that one statement about the high phosphate and how he did lose some types of coral and how his tank did change.
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