High Phosphates need help!!

[mcarroll]

some pretty clear studies that higher phosphate will limit calcification and lower levels will promote it (leading to burnt tips as calcification outpaces tissue in low P acropora tanks with abundance of carbonate, calcium and magnesium).

This is old science and (mostly now) a hobby myth – both the proposed mechanisms and the supposed cause(s).

I have several journal articles on it....all calling out something to the effect: "maybe science was mostly wrong about P being bad....and nutrients in general too."

Nutrients appear to be good EXCEPT under a sort of narrow range of circumstances. And that narrow range of circumstances really aren't mysterious after reading either.

Check out "microbialization" in relation to algae and coral reefs...IMO burnt tips is from this.

...for example: Global microbialization of coral reefs
...and this: Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality​

Also this:

Results of the 1991 United States-Israel Workshop, “Nutrient Limitations in the Symbiotic Association between Zooxanthellae and Reef-building Corals”​

If you browse around the Coral or Nutrients tags on my blog you can find quite a few more...all singing approximately the same song.

Carbon limitation seems to anchor the reef ecosystem...nutrient levels seem mostly secondary, but they are nutrients not toxins....they don't hurt anything. They do seem to raise the potential for bleaching if there's a rapid change in conditions, however.

Rising carbon levels on the other hand....

 

[jda]

I did not follow, are you saying that calcification DOES NOT slow as P rises, or that my sentence on burnt tips is not right in your opinion?

I am not going to argue that nutrients are good. However, all nutrients become poisons in too high of concentrations in all ecosystems. We don't really need to debate this too much since there is plenty of ground in the middle for stuff to thrive.

Depending on what you meant, I do have some thoughts... sorry for being dense.

 

[EmdeReef]

This is a good question and probably deserving of clarification going forward. The equilibrium is about the level and not the amount. The rocks can contain so much more bound phosphate that the levels then rebounds to a very-close-but-slightly lower-than-before new equilibrium level. What I cannot tell is if this extraction from the aragonite is linear or in a slight reverse-exponential pattern - it is certainly not a steep exponential curve.

GFO and water will also hold a different amount at the same level, or else it would not work any better than a water change. Saturated GFO will certainly release back into water with lower levels of phosphate.

I am making up this example, but this is what you might see:

• Tank Water P With P Filled Rocks, GFO added, Immediate Tank P After GFO, Tank P after 48 Hours, or so
• 1.0, 200ml,.12,1.0
• 1.0, 200ml,.12,1.0
• .99, 200ml,.12,.99
• .98, 200ml,.12,.98
• .98,200ml,.11,.98
• .98,200ml,.11,.98
• ...

This might be easy to experiment with some phosphate additive that can be measured, let it mingle with some weight of aragonite in a bucket for a month of two and see how much is removed from the water. Then, see how much it goes down with some weight of GFO.

I had a friend with a really badly neglected FOWLR with some fantastic Marshall Island live rock that he wanted to use for a reef. GFO was not cutting it, so he ordered a 8G bucket of aluminum media, which I have observed to be significantly more powerful than GFO. It took almost this whole bucket before his P levels would stay below .05 where he wanted them. I do not know if the aluminum media will release phosphate, or if it is bound permanently - would love to know.

Lastly, there are a few articles that you can find that show some pretty clear studies that higher phosphate will limit calcification and lower levels will promote it (leading to burnt tips as calcification outpaces tissue in low P acropora tanks with abundance of carbonate, calcium and magnesium). As anybody with higher P can tell you, coralline stops after a while. Acros slow down. There are also a few that show high levels of phosphate will inhibit dino (zoox) growth and reproduction in true (hard) coral.

It important for everybody to know that the vast majority of the high-phosphate tanks that people like to show off did not achieve their current success with levels that high... most of them let the levels climb later on after a period of more traditional nutrient levels that led to the growth. In some cases, the folks will tell you that they have lost certain kinds of coral, but it is, by no means, a death sentence to all of the inhabitants. Don't just look at Richard Ross's tank and assume that you can get there by doing the same thing... he gave a 1 hour talk (you can find it with a Google search) about all of the nuance that goes into that one statement about the high phosphate and how he did lose some types of coral and how his tank did change.

The reason I asked the question about 1ppm PO4 was thinking about Rich Ross and some studies indicating in a lab setting that corals survived and even experienced increased growth at concentrations of 0.5 (which is about as high most studies go). Another caveat is that there doesn't appear to be an adequate longitudinal study on the impact of PO4 on coral growth. (I've only looked at a few journal aggregators I still have access to).

While Rich Ross et al. may have been lucky to end up with only "extremophile" specimens (unlikely), it is highly unlikely their corals have adapted to the conditions that are outside the maximum tolerated threshold (assuming there is one for PO4) within a lifetime of a tank or even an average human lifetime for that matter. Although, I'm sure there is anecdotal evidence to disprove this and about everything else

 

[rudyrizzo]

I expect the ORP of 38 is an error unless you are dosing large amounts of low ORP chemicals, such as vitamin C.

Not dosing anything at all running a calcium reactor and carbon in my media reactor.

 

[jda]

I don't think that he has extreme corals, or anything... However, his reef did the vast majority of it's development under conditions that are not like what they are today. IIRC, he lost some of the more difficult acropora and most of the growth has slowed considerably - this is not always a bad thing when your tank is full... pruning and cutting up coral is not a lot of fun. In the speech, he was happy with this, but did indicate that not everything was the same as before.

I just want folks to understand that most of these tanks did not get this way under 1.X of phosphate during the whole time.

Just about anything can work as long as all of the nuance is understood. I would hate for somebody to see one headline and the photo of that tank, or others, and start to dose sodium phosphate to get to 1.X as soon as the tank was new without understanding the whole story.

Also, I think that it might be smart to separate these type of discussions into true coral (skeleton leavers), colonial stuff and other softies. I can totally believe that some of the softies grew better at higher P concentrations and I have experienced this, but I have directly experienced that this is not true with acropora.

 

[rudyrizzo]

I have an 8 bulb T5 Aquatic life. My purples come on at 8am and turn off at 5pm, my whites come on at 9am and turn off at 1pm, my blues come on at 5pm until 1am. For my blues I also have a LED which comes on and off with the T5 bulbs. If you think I should adjust the times please tell me what you'd do. The acans were some of the first corals I added 3 years ago. Last corals I added were 3 months ago. They were dipped and those corals look amazing. I talked to a friend of mine and added Polyplab Colors, they rebounded but my acans still died.

Listen man. You were obviously were lazy about swapping out your GFO or just lacked a lot of knowledge how it works and thought it was the miracle pill to solving phosphates that you could swap out when you wanted.
I had Chemipure Elite(which is GFO) melt a yellow hammer and aussie gold torch. It is like taking a cup of GFO and sticking it in your tank vs a half a table spoon which can go a long way. My experience with GFO. Stay away from it and I know others who have said the same thing happen to them. Read online about all the people that said, "GFO killed my corals."
I am guessing from the laziness or lack of knowledge from taking so long to change out your GFO. Which ever it maybe. A) You did not rinse it. B) The flow is to high. C) You added to much D) all of the above, because you didn't answer the questions I asked and you would have known to do it sooner if you read up about it.
Think of it like volcanic ash for you to breathe. It is not going to be good for you.
Not trying to be harsh. Just trying to figure it all out.[/QUOTE]

Not lazy at all when it comes to my tanks sorry been trying to keep up with everyone’s posts. I went to a different LFS and bought the GFO and the sales guy told me to just put the entire jar (turns out he works freshwater and never saltwater). I added it being told it would change color (dirty look) like purigen. After months of having it in and noticing the flow from my reactor was weak and corals the ones in question looking bad I took it out.
I have 2 250 gyres running one on full and one on half. That’s how they’ve been since I started the tank.

PS the main reason I didn’t reply is because I got kneed to the head fighting with a combative arrest and had a mid grade concussion so I wasn’t intentionally ignoring you I lost track of everything.

 

[EmdeReef]

Listen man. You were obviously were lazy about swapping out your GFO or just lacked a lot of knowledge how it works and thought it was the miracle pill to solving phosphates that you could swap out when you wanted.
I had Chemipure Elite(which is GFO) melt a yellow hammer and aussie gold torch. It is like taking a cup of GFO and sticking it in your tank vs a half a table spoon which can go a long way. My experience with GFO. Stay away from it and I know others who have said the same thing happen to them. Read online about all the people that said, "GFO killed my corals."
I am guessing from the laziness or lack of knowledge from taking so long to change out your GFO. Which ever it maybe. A) You did not rinse it. B) The flow is to high. C) You added to much D) all of the above, because you didn't answer the questions I asked and you would have known to do it sooner if you read up about it.
Think of it like volcanic ash for you to breathe. It is not going to be good for you.
Not trying to be harsh. Just trying to figure it all out.

Not lazy at all when it comes to my tanks sorry been trying to keep up with everyone’s posts. I went to a different LFS and bought the GFO and the sales guy told me to just put the entire jar (turns out he works freshwater and never saltwater). I added it being told it would change color (dirty look) like purigen. After months of having it in and noticing the flow from my reactor was weak and corals the ones in question looking bad I took it out.
I have 2 250 gyres running one on full and one on half. That’s how they’ve been since I started the tank.

PS the main reason I didn’t reply is because I got kneed to the head fighting with a combative arrest and had a mid grade concussion so I wasn’t intentionally ignoring you I lost track of everything.[/QUOTE]

I really don’t think it’s a phosphate issue. We can keep debating chemistry and, more to my preference, biology. Sometimes it just happens that corals die and while i hope in the near future such a statement will make me sound much more ignorant than I am now, the truth is that these days we often don’t know and never find out.

Fortunately, it would seem that other corals are doing pretty well and that’s one gorgeous tank btw, I can’t imagine it being a product of neglect...

I’d keep close watch on everything and test alk as often as possible + doing a few more water changes. A Triton test may make sense too.

 

[rudyrizzo]

Not lazy at all when it comes to my tanks sorry been trying to keep up with everyone’s posts. I went to a different LFS and bought the GFO and the sales guy told me to just put the entire jar (turns out he works freshwater and never saltwater). I added it being told it would change color (dirty look) like purigen. After months of having it in and noticing the flow from my reactor was weak and corals the ones in question looking bad I took it out.
I have 2 250 gyres running one on full and one on half. That’s how they’ve been since I started the tank.

PS the main reason I didn’t reply is because I got kneed to the head fighting with a combative arrest and had a mid grade concussion so I wasn’t intentionally ignoring you I lost track of everything.

I really don’t think it’s a phosphate issue. We can keep debating chemistry and, more to my preference, biology. Sometimes it just happens that corals die and while i hope in the near future such a statement will make me sound much more ignorant than I am now, the truth is that these days we often don’t know and never find out.

Fortunately, it would seem that other corals are doing pretty well and that’s one gorgeous tank btw, I can’t imagine it being a product of neglect...

I’d keep close watch on everything and test alk as often as possible + doing a few more water changes. A Triton test may make sense too.[/QUOTE]
Thank you

 

[happyhourhero]

Phosphate fear is hype IMO. I have made the mistake of having a coral not look good > test p04 > its high > lower it > tick off everything else that would have been fine if you had just left it alone.

 

[mcarroll]

This is a good question and probably deserving of clarification going forward.

OK this is digging on me again....found the same abstract on google scholar that I think I looked at before (and nothing else):

Up to 80% of the adsorbed phosphate is released from calcium carbonate over one day. The amount of PO4 left on the CaCO3 is close to the equilibrium adsorption.

Adsorption and desorption of phosphate on calcite and aragonite in seawater

I'm not going to play expert, and I only have an abstract to go on (dang!), but this sounds supportive of my theory at least in that the desorption timeframe should not be extended like in the cases folks report on this. From whatever is "stored" down to equilibrium in a day.

If the abstract says anything about potential quantity that can be stored, it's in a formula and over my head....so someone might gleen more than I did.

Wondering if anyone has access to the whole article?

 

[jda]

I read that and it supports everything that I am saying, where it will release fairly fast (as fast as can be blown away into the open tank), but then stops at a level equilibrium and not am amount equilibrium (the aragonite holds more than the water in quantity). Even if the aragonite can release it quickly, it still needs to get out of nooks, crannies, substrate and into the open, which can be slow.

Maybe we should take this into a new thread. I thought of a good way to test this if I can find some phosphate free aragonite. I will tag you in it. Thinking about getting a solution of 2.0 PPM phosphate fresh saltwater, putting aragonite in it and seeing how far it drops. My guess is that it will go all the way down to 2-5 PPB in the water column with the first dose and then rise with each subsequent dose.

I have some good phosphate free live rock, and I hate to waste it on this... so maybe I will use some large sized ARM that I have laying around.

I would need all of the input that I could get.

 

[EmdeReef]

OK this is digging on me again....found the same abstract on google scholar that I think I looked at before (and nothing else):



Adsorption and desorption of phosphate on calcite and aragonite in seawater

I'm not going to play expert, and I only have an abstract to go on (dang!), but this sounds supportive of my theory at least in that the desorption timeframe should not be extended like in the cases folks report on this. From whatever is "stored" down to equilibrium in a day.

If the abstract says anything about potential quantity that can be stored, it's in a formula and over my head....so someone might gleen more than I did.

Wondering if anyone has access to the whole article?

I’ll try to see when I get home.

I’d still be surprised that the rocks alone would raise phosphates to over 1 in a tank...would have to be some really dirty rocks, guess it’s possible but you’d expect a lower release over time....

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is old science and (mostly now) a hobby myth – both the proposed mechanisms and the supposed cause(s).

I have several journal articles on it....all calling out something to the effect: "maybe science was mostly wrong about P being bad....and nutrients in general too."

Nutrients appear to be good EXCEPT under a sort of narrow range of circumstances. And that narrow range of circumstances really aren't mysterious after....

All the observations may be correct under the circumstances studied or observed in reef tanks.

So many things impact corals that perhaps phosphate deters calcification in some corals under some circumstances, and not for other corals in some circumstances. An analogy might be to suggest that lack of phosphate deters algae growth, but, of course, it cannot inhibit growth if some other factor is already more restrictive to growth rates.

FWIW, phosphate is known to inhibit abiotic precipitation by getting onto growing calcium carbonate surfaces, poisoning them for additional growth. Different corals or different other circumstances may have an impact on how readily phosphate can get from the bulk water to a growing surface of a coral skeleton to potentially slow it down.

 

[VR28man]

So then, if my PO4 is like 0.3 and i’m growing pocillopora damicornis, favites pentagona (war coral) and pterogorgia anceps (purple aea rod) (and unfortunately red cyanobacteria ), do people recommend i lower my po4?

And if so, should I try to do it gradually by routine water changes or should I try GFO?

Apologies to OP for hijacking the thread.

 

[EmdeReef]

So then, if my PO4 is like 0.3 and i’m growing pocillopora damicornis, favites pentagona (war coral) and pterogorgia anceps (purple aea rod) (and unfortunately red cyanobacteria ), do people recommend i lower my po4?

And if so, should I try to do it gradually by routine water changes or should I try GFO?

Apologies to OP for hijacking the thread.

FWIW I wouldn’t worry about 0.3...but yeah water changes would be better unless you want to run a ULNS

Re: cyano there’s likely an imbalance between your nitrates and phosphates, if you fix that they are supposed to go away after some time.

 

[mcarroll]

Adsorption and desorption of phosphate on calcite and aragonite in seawater

I'm not going to play expert, and I only have an abstract to go on (dang!),

I happened to search again just now and I SWEAR there was no PDF link for this when I looked before BUT IT'S THERE NOW.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/34146197/Calcite-P_AqGeoch2001.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1516359101&Signature=3fromyI6co9gniMbzjxhhDTpAxs=&response-content-disposition=inline; filename=Adsorption_and_desorption_of_phosphate_o.pdf

Academia.edu links are sketchy for me sometimes, so google scholar search that articles title if you have problems and follow Google's link.

(gonna have to save it for later reading, myself, but it does appear to have the data I was hoping for.....we'll see!)

 

[aquariumreefers]

Nopox worked for me but be careful and follow proper dosing recommendations or it can cause more harm than help

 

[madweazl]

Keep the articles coming! I've saved a number of things to check out later.

 

[JimmyV]

I have tried gfo, chemipure, you name it I tried it with no luck, always had phosphate , water changes, tested every thing with good readings. Finally tried

used as directions indicated and now I am phosphate free. now I just have to keep it that way and be diligent

 

[EmdeReef]

I have tried gfo, chemipure, you name it I tried it with no luck, always had phosphate , water changes, tested every thing with good readings. Finally tried

used as directions indicated and now I am phosphate free. now I just have to keep it that way and be diligent

Never used that particular product but sounds like it’s lanthanum chloride which is indeed very effective. Used it to cure dry rock.